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Joined: 2005/10/21
Posts: 133
Wellington, Ohio


But what is sin? is it just adultery and other outward sins (even though even these orginate from the heart)? I want to know what people think about sins of the mind and even of WHO WE ARE! like everyday actions.. pride, selfishness, envy, backbiting.. sin!

My definition of sin, for myself, is anytime I am not walking with, and loving, God. In other words Walking in the Spirit, as opposed to the flesh. Sin does not occur only when the outward action happens, but from the state of being that produced the outward action as well. When I am enjoying the presence of God, I cannot become proud or envious or any of these things but for a second. I can be tempted, but it is easy to crucify these things when I am enjoying the holy and loving presence of the One who I know free'd me from these things. Pride is not an issue, envy is not an issue, lack of love is not an issue when I look to Him. It all dissolves and Love and His Holiness fill their places.

"Who we are" is an interesting statement. Just as Paul did, I find two me's. There is me, and then there is Christ in me. When I am not walking the Spirit, I am walking in Me (what paul calls, the flesh). This is always sin (rom 8, the flesh is enmity with God). But it is dead, and I do not have to walk in it. It may try to rise up and take its throne back, but so long as the Spirit (the presence of God, walking with Him, loving Him, communing with Him)remains on the throne, I continue to walk in holiness.

Two things can happen to end this wonderful relationship and this wonderful state of holiness and perfection.

1.)I can stop seeking after God (usually this happens when a test comes and it becomes harder to commune with God), prayer is less, my heart is not directed toward Him or acknowledging His presence. Then I begin to fall to the outward sins. It is important to note that this does not give a person an excuse to sin because they are not 'walking in the Spirit'. For one, because they should be (and can be) walking in the Spirit right now (through the blood of Christ)! And second, because even when we are not seeking Him, there is still a 'way out' (1 corinth. 10:13), whether we believe it or not or want it or not. We are still accountable if we choose to indulge in Sin.

2.) I can give in to temptation to commit one of these actions (or indulge in pride and other states of mind), and immediately this state of communion seems to end until I have thoroughly repented and come back to God.

I would like to point out that neither of these two things has to ever happen, and if it does, it is purely on account of my own decision and will not to follow after God. God has fully enabled me to follow after Him at all times. He has never hid Himself from me yet. Through Christ, I may gaze on His glorious face and enjoy His Life giving, power giving, love giving presence always.

I do not intend to theologically prove all of this (although I think Romans 6-8, Gal 5, and all of 1 John pretty well show this). However, it has been my Christian experience. Hope this encourages you.

Joe E

 2006/1/31 19:58Profile

Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 202



tinluke wrote:
Perhaps we have too narrow a view of what sin is and therefore we make it easy to claim perfection form sin.

You hit the nail on the head!

Regarding the definition of sin,

I agree with what is quoted above me, however, I want to expand upon it.

Sin literally means to, "miss the mark". It was originally an archery term. When you missed the mark, it was sin. It didn't matter whether you missed by an inch or by a mile, it was sin.

God is the mark.

Anything that misses the mark is sin.

So, the issue is not so much that we have too narrow a view of what sin is, but that we don't have a large enough understanding of who God is.


Combat Chuck

 2006/2/1 2:32Profile


You are able to abstain from sin before the eyes of others, yet when you are before only God, you suddenly have a 'sin nature' or a 'flesh' which prevents you from being able to be holy. This is hypocrisy.

Whilst I fully appreciate your point here and perhaps I am thinking of slightly less obvious sins but I think this could cause some people who are not hypocritical and false to come under unnecessary condemnation. I think it is worth taking into account that although we never need to sin we sometimes do and it is more likely to happen when we are not amongst the rest of the church as we are easier targets when we are on our own or perhaps have made a mistake and got into a silly situation. I think the devil is a coward and tries to 'pick people off' whilst they are alone and vunerable rather than in the company of God's people so I don't think that everyone who sometimes falls down either in some private way or just not in front of the church is necessarily a hypocrit. I am not syaing that I think that this is always the case and I am not completely trying to argue the point that you are making. It also says confess your faults one to another not your specific sins. I am also not saying that it is not possible to withstand sin in private as I totally think it is and I get your point about 'blaming our flesh' when we had a choice.

 2006/2/1 7:27

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Sin

Forgive me if this has been covered prior, but a wise sage here has in the past brought up the idea of 'first instance' in the scriptures. Chronologically, canon wise, unsure how accurate as to "First", but it's a layman's attempt. Took one from the Old and the New Testament:

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, [b]sin[/b](2407) lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

חטּאת חטּאה
chaṭṭâ'âh chaṭṭâ'th
khat-taw-aw', khat-tawth'
From H2398; an [u]offence[/u] (sometimes habitual sinfulness), and its penalty, occasion, sacrifice, or expiation; also (concretely) an offender: - punishment (of sin), purifying (-fication for sin), sin (-ner, offering).

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of [b]sin[/b]266 and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

From G264; sin (properly abstract): - [u]offence[/u], sin (-ful).

Have wondered about the phrasing of 'missing the mark', something not quite satisfactory. It appears from these examples to be [i][b]offense[/b][/i].

Ultimately, it is always offending God. Another comes instantly to mind, with a parallel;

Jam 4:17 [i]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.[/i]

Rom 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, [b]they glorified him not[/b] as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

"Missing the mark" actually seems to be a very poor definition. How about [i]defiance[/i]? [i]rebellion?[/i]

Psa 51:4 [b]Against[/b] thee, thee only, have I sinned, and [b]done this evil[/b] in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Interestingly, took from this the above, 'sinned';

A primitive root; properly to miss; hence (figuratively and generally) to sin; by inference to forfeit, lack, expiate, repent, (causatively) lead astray, condemn: - bear the blame, cleanse, commit [sin], by fault, harm he hath done, loss, miss, (make) [b]offend[/b] (-er), offer for sin, purge, purify (self), make reconciliation, (cause, make) sin (-ful, -ness), trespassive

"Miss" is there, but seems otherwise still.
Something about '[i]On purpose[/i]'. In other words, not so much as "missing the mark", but aiming the arrows at God.

Mike Balog

 2006/2/1 7:38Profile

 Re: Must we sin?

Have wondered about the phrasing of 'missing the mark', something not quite satisfactory. It appears from these examples to be [i][b]offense[/b][/i].


I think you are bringing too modern a meaning to the word 'offense'. Without claiming a knowledge of the 'word history', let me throw a few more (other than you've mentioned) terms into the arena - [i]iniquity, evil, wickedness, transgression[/i]. My simple understanding is that a 'transgresion' is a crossing of a line (in the sand?) and this would count as an offence. That is, the rule or law is clear and well known, but a person breaks that rule or law. That's a transgression - an offence against that rule or law.

I have not read the thread so far, so this next point may have been made, which is that one can have a change of attitude to a certain behaviour [i]after[/i] one comes to know God.... One may have been so busy trying not to sin in certain ways, that one hedged oneself about with many tiny exaggerations of the rules, simply to try to keep within them all the time. Then, after one has power over one's will (through new birth), and is delivered from certain previously irresistable temptations, one finds it possible to do things which previously one would have avoided. I don't mean one now [i]sins[/i] with a 'clear conscience', but, that one has a sense of [u]liberty in Christ[/u], and as one walks in the light with Him, 1 John 1:7 is being outworked 24/7, so that one stops feeling as if one is sinning all the time and beating one's brains out about whether one has offended God inadvertently.

And from that point on, it is harder for the accuser to convince one that one is secretly sinning all the time, because one simply will not receive the thought - the LIE - because one IS perfected by His one offering and one IS walking in the light and one IS living in the Holy Spirit.

 2006/2/1 9:05

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA


OFFENSE, n. offens'[/b]. [L. offensus, offensa.]

1. Displeasure; anger, or moderate anger. He gave them just cause of offense. He took offense.

2. Scandal; cause of stumbling. Christ is called a stone of stumbling and rock of offense to both the houses of Israel. Psa 8.

3. Any transgression of law, divine or human; a crime; sin; act of wickedness or omission of duty.

Christ was delivered for our offenses, and raised again for our justification. Rom 4.

4. An injury.

I have given my opinion against the authority of two great men, but I hope without offense to their memories.

5. Attack; assault; as a weapon of offense.

6. Impediment. Mat 16.

Ye Old Websters 1828 Dictionary

Mike Balog

 2006/2/1 9:45Profile

Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164


I had a thought today:

Can we completely submit our whole being to Christ?
If we completely sumbit our whole being to Christ will we sin against Him?

Maybe we need to start a thread on sin? What is the deffinition of it? That might help clear some things.. whether we must sin or not.

Josh Parsley

 2006/2/1 9:52Profile

Joined: 2005/4/8
Posts: 220
New England USA


I can't believe the post is still going. I did not want to reply as I was afraid of doing so just to prove a point, but as I was praying this mornig the Lord just began to speak to me about this.

ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

All of our righteousness is as filthy rags.

Do we all sin?? YES!

Are we holy? YES!!

We are not HOLY because we DO NOT sin, we are HOLY becasue of THE BLOOD OF THE SLAIN LAMB!

I know who I am when I stand before the Lord. I am a sinner saved by grace, washed in the blood of the lamb. And yes, even my little white lie was enough to nail PERFECTION to a cross. I sent a perfect man to die!!

Jesus wants our hearts, not perfection! Are our hearts open to Him or are we more concerned with proving a point or "doing it right". I went to the Lord and asked Him to show me my heart in all of this. My sin greives me! I love the Lord so much, I NEVER want to sin again because I know the price He paid!!! But, the reality is that I will sin again. And when I do, I will run to the Lord in repentance and and open heart before Him. And He is so mercifull and patient that will forgive me. And He will continue to tell me that I am HIS precious jewel. And He will sing over me and tell me that I am HIS. NOT because I am perfect and sinless,but because my heart belongs to HIM. And I am open to allow Him to cleanse me and lead me all the days of my life. I will give Him whatever He asks and go whereever He tells me to go! I am HIS!



 2006/2/1 10:43Profile

Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164


Your righteousness isn't a filthy rag if its Christ's righteousness in you. Are we actually made holy? Or just holiness accounted to us? Are we actually righteous? or just righteouness accounted to us? (EDIT: Would it not be both?)

1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Reguardless if you believe you can or can't be without sin, both believe VERY strongly that you cannot do anything alone, but only by the grace that is found in Christ.

Josh Parsley

 2006/2/1 11:05Profile


There was another forum on this subject called: A Sinless Life-Is it possible?

I learned alot of living a sinless life through Watchman Nee.I rarely ever catch myself sinning anymore unless I neglect my prayer life and time in the word.Even then I rarely sin anymore.

There is alot in the bible about mortifying the deeds of the body.That all has to do with self denial.The truth is that alot of christians really like themselves more than they know.When you deny yourself you loose yourself and take on the likeness of Christ.You will never be the same once you walk in self denial.Alot of christians say they want to live without sin and I know their spirit man does but they still love their TV set for instance more than the agony of the cross.

Jesus said if any man come after me He MUST deny himself and pick up his cross and follow me.First you have to get to the place that you are willing to give it ALL up.If you say to yourself that you'll give up all of your sins except for your TV set for instance your not in self denial.It doesn't work that way.

Most christians who read this will get frustrated and ignore what Im saying here because they are not willing to accept what Im saying and they would just like to pretend that what Im saying is not true.But if any man be ignorant let him be ignorant.

Self denial is basically being dead.I tell people all of the time and we've talked about this here before on the other forum.Ask yourself this:


The gosple is easily understood for those who want to understand.The truth is that most christians really don't want to hear because they love some of their sins.Sure theirs alot they would like to get rid of but their is alot they would like to keep so they turn a deaf ear.
Not only that but self denial is very humbling.But you can't get the gold till you've been through the fire.

Just think of the first time you stood in front of a bunch of strangers and started preaching.That was a fire! Now you anticipate the whole thing.Why? Because you denied yourself.So it is with every area of your life.Its hard at first because you have to put the flesh to death.The pride had to die.That was humiliating standing in front of a bunch of strangers barely able to speak.Its not hard now though is it? Now you look forward to it.

If any man have ears (ears that want to hear) let him hear.

 2006/2/1 12:03

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