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It was Ravenhill who first turned me on to the official doctrine of Holiness, though of course I read all about holiness in the bible.

It is something I repeatedly heard throughout his sermons, ones like "freedom from bondage" "a pure heart" etc.

Here are some quotes from Ravenhill on perfection from, "Be Holy In All Conversation" 2:15min-5:24min

Ravenhill said, "I think one of our weaknesses in our modern presentation of the truth on Christian living is that we are more afraid of holiness then we are of sinfulness. The preachers have given us so many alabys for our weakness and our carnal nature and heaven knows what. But when we talk about holiness we get rather nervous and we want to back off. Supposing you change the word from holy to healthy, which is really its main meaning. As He which is called you is healthy, morally and spiritually, so you should be holy, I should be holy. Ah..healthy spiritually and morally.

(continued) "There are alternate words for this word holiness. You could say sanctification is the same thing. Or perfection. Well, that word scares us more then ever. You know we hear people say, "Well I'm not perfect" Well, don't be so proud of it. It shows up, don't boast about it. I mean, why aren't you perfect? You say, "you expect me to be perfect?" Sure I do. I think Jesus did, didn't He in the Sermon on the Mount? He talked about perfection there for us.

(continued) "Well, we could pull out of our text for our own convenience, "wait a minute, wait a minute didn't the Apostle Paul say 'not that I have already attained or were already perfect' That's what he said. Well, you say, "if he said he wasn't perfect do you expect me to be perfect?" Yes I do. Because you quoted about perfection out of context. If you go two verses past that verse, in that verse he says 'not as though I had already attained or were already perfect" two verses further one he says "let us who are perfect". Now what do you do with it?

(continued) "He's talking about two different things. In the first case, "not as though I had already attained" he's talking there of the resurrection body. I don't have one, do you? I'll be glad when I get it because I have a body that gives me a lot of problems due to some serious accident I had a few years ago. And I'll be delighted when I get, as it were, the last installment of my salvation.

(continued) "salvation is present, salvation is progressive, salvation will be finalized, because one day we are going to have a body like unto His glorious body. And we are told, "be ye perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect" Now again, we can't have angelic perfection, we can't have intellectual perfection. There are many perfections we can't have. Adam like perfection. We can have spiritual perfection because God demands that we love Him with a perfect heart and with a perfect mind. And we can be made perfect in love the Word of God says."

Leonard Ravenhill in, "Be Holy In All Conversation" from 2:15min-5:24min

"There are only two types of people in this world; those who are dead in sin and those who are dead to sin." Leonard Ravenhill

Many great men taught holiness like [b]John Wesley, John Fletcher, E.M. Bounds, William & Catherine Booth, Charles Finney, A. B. Simpson, Duncan Campbell, Leonard Ravenhill.[/b] And any one of us would do good to follow in their biblical footsteps.

 2006/1/31 14:46


Here is also a good E.M. Bounds quote to go with the Ravenhill quote:

“Nothing short of absolute obedience will satisfy God. The keeping of all His commandments is the demonstration of obedience that God requires. But can we keep all of God’s commandments? Can a man receive moral ability that helps him to obey every one of them? Certainly he can. By the same token, man can, through prayer, obtain ability to do this very thing…Does God give commandments that men cannot obey? Is he so arbitrary, so severe, so unloving, that He issues commandments that cannot be obeyed? The answer is that, in all of Scripture, not a single instance is recorded of God having commanded any man to do a thing that was beyond his power. Is God so unjust and so inconsiderate to require a man something that he is unable to do? Certainly not! To infer is to slander the character of God.” From "Prayer and Obedience"

 2006/1/31 15:20

Joined: 2005/4/8
Posts: 220
New England USA


Hey Jesse,

I agree with everything you posted, but I think this discussion took a wrong turn. What Greg said earlier really hit the nail on the head. When I think of the battle of the flesh, I don't [personally] think of lust, lying, stealing, fornication, murder... etc. I am thinking of the personal stuggles with in my mind and heart. For example if I had the wrong additude towards my husband or a brother/sister in the Lord. Yes, I sinned, but when the Lord points it out to me I repent, ask forgivness and go on.

Or what about spiritual pride, fear, doubt, unbeliefe??? These are "hidden" sins of the heart that are the root of many "big" sins.
What about anger?? What about hating someone who is abusing you??? Can any of us say "forgive him father for he knows not know what he does." No, we can not do it, but the spirit of Christ with in us can. And sometimes we need to cry out over and over again. Lord help me love the person who hurts me!! Yes, hating even the person who is hurting you is still HATE and therefore still sin. So, this is the struggle that I am referring to.

And I feel the the Holy spirit has said this to me about those who are struggling with this.



 2006/1/31 15:51Profile

Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131



How many of us have reached the level of perfection in which we do not sin or even think about sinning?

Let me examine myself since I am very knowlegable of that subject:

I know without a doubt that I am a redeemed by God. I have a relationship with the Lord and I love him!

Now, knowing that I am saved and have a relationship with God, do I sin? Everyday. Am I proud of that? NO!

I hate the sin that is in me...and sometimes I don't hate it enough. I struggle with thoughts of impurity, I struggle with disobeying God's commands, I have times of calousness and coldness towards prayer.

Does God convict me of all the above? You bet! Do I repent of my sins and ask for forgiveness? Yes!

My point is this, I know I am a Christian, but I also sin. I am not saying that it is ok to be a Christian and sin, but I must admit the truth in my life. My sin is my own fault, not God's. He never forces me to sin and he never tempts me with sin. But, praise his holy and glorious name, if I was to say that I had no sin, I would be deceiving myself and the truth would not be in me, but when I confess my sin, he is faithful and just to forgive me of my sin. And to cleanse me of all unrighteousness! 1 John 1:8-9

To sum this up with what Paul says in Romans, in my life right now, I have two "natures" waging a war inside of me.

I have the sinful nature that I was born with and I have the the Holy Spirit inside of me that came when I became a follower of Christ.

So how do these two "natures" battle?
Let's suppose I am driving down the road and I see an ESPN billboard with 4 women in bikini's with the letters E S P N on their stomachs. (True story)

Now, when I am driving by this billboard my sinful nature wants to stare at the women and enjoy their figures.

At the same time...

The holy spirit is telling me that I should not look at the billboard because if I lust after them in my heart, I am committing adultery. It would be a sin to lust after the women.

Here is where my "Free-Will" comes into play, do I listen to my sinful nature or do I listen to the Holy Spirit?

If I truly love God more than my lust, I will choose to listen to the Holy Spirit. If I give into my sinful nature, I greive the Holy Spirit and sin against God. Conviction comes and I plead for forgiveness.

Now, is it possible for me to acheive a "perfect" and "sinless" state so that I don't even have the DESIRE to look at the women and lust?

 2006/1/31 16:01Profile

Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164


Now, is it possible for me to acheive a "perfect" and "sinless" state so that I don't even have the DESIRE to look at the women and lust?

Temptation is not sin nor is a natural attaction. "Lusting after" is sin.

Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

This would be the biblical thing to do:

2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Josh Parsley

 2006/1/31 16:13Profile


I can testifying of having the blessed experience of the beauty of holiness. This is not mere theology and idealogy we are discussing, this is practical, this is true life.

Yes a Christian can sin BIG, and a Christian can sin SMALL, but a Christian doesn't have to sin at all.

A true Christian, if he finds he has sin in his life, will repent. If he doesn't he becomes a backslider or a hypocrite.

So I think it's really simple. If you have any BIG sins in your life, or if you have any SMALL sins in your life, simply repent.

It's very important you make the distinction between TEMPTATION and SIN. You will never be above temptation, even Christ was tempted. But you can be above sin. You'll never be free from temptation until you die and recieve a new body, but you can be "free from sin"(Rom 6:18) here and now.

 2006/1/31 16:15

Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164


I believe whole heartedly that by the grace of God you can do 2Cr 10:5.

Josh Parsley

 2006/1/31 16:16Profile

Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131


I agree that temptation is not a sin.

But is it possible not to struggle during the temptation?

 2006/1/31 16:21Profile


You will grow in grace, meaning grow in strength. (You do not have to sin to grow in grace. Rather growing in grace is not sinning, but continually saying no to temptation as it becomes easier and easier. It's going from glory to glory)

The more you say no to temptation, the easier it becomes.

I used to do heavy drugs. When I first started saying no to the temptations, it was very hard. But I have grown in grace, grown in strength, and now I don't even think about doing any drugs. It's not a temptation to me anymore.

Let's be specific and make a list of sins men cannot live without until they die. Which sins are they?

Is it drunkeness? Is it lying? Is it stealing? Is it selfishness? Is it pride? Is it hatred? Is it sexual lust? Which sin cannot a man repent from?

Or as Ravenhill says in the Revival Hymn, "what are you saved from?"

It's not merely cleaning the outside of the cup, (the BIG sins) but it's cleaning the inside of the cup (the smaller, unseen sins). And Jesus rebuked sharply those who only cleaned the outside but not the inside!

 2006/1/31 16:24

Joined: 2005/1/13
Posts: 59


[url=]response here[/url]


I believe the Scriptures teach that we can walk [u]just as Jesus walked[/u] and that God commands us to be perfect like Himself.

The truth is I fall to sin.

I'm not going to try to pretend like purity isn't what the Scriptures teach, though, simply because I'm not living it.

There's probably a deeper battle going on inside me (and apparently others) though as to whether or not I believe the Scriptures. Mentally, of course, I assert they are 100% true, but then if my heart echoed my thoughts, why would I not be perfect? Is our Father a hard taskmaster or a liar? Would he give a command without giving us power to keep it, or would he lie and say his commands are not burdensome if indeed they are?

I don't think we can be perfect without the kingdom of God, and until we realize our need for one another, we won't be able to enter into this great salvation.

That's where I fall short.

adj. pur·er, pur·est

1. Having a homogeneous or uniform composition; not mixed: pure oxygen.
2. Free from adulterants or impurities: pure chocolate.
3. Free of dirt, defilement, or pollution: “A memory without blot or contamination must be... an inexhaustible source of pure refreshment” (Charlotte Brontë).
4. Free of foreign elements.
5. Containing nothing inappropriate or extraneous: a pure literary style.
6. Complete; utter: pure folly.
7. Having no faults; sinless: “I felt pure and sweet as a new baby” (Sylvia Plath).
8. Chaste; virgin.
9. Of unmixed blood or ancestry.

 2006/1/31 16:26Profile

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