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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619

 Re: Christian Perfection

I Like this portion in "Chystallization-Study of the Epistle of James"

I removed this post because the issue of the differneces between James and the rest of the New testament are controversial and have been discussed in other forums.

I don't want to re-issue this controversy

If any are interested this whole treatment can be found at:


 2006/2/1 15:05Profile

Joined: 2006/2/4
Posts: 8


God never gave a command in scripture that was impossible to keep. several times in the gospels christ commands those who receive forgiveness for their sin, to sin no more. that means that it is a possiblity to live with out sin. i cannot speak for you but when I got saved i became 2 cor 5:17. a new creation, old things have passed away all things have become new. James it says to him that knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. also 1 john 2:1 says these things i write to you that you sin not. and note the nedt part of that verse. IT SAYS BUT IF, IF, IF, IF. The word if is conditional, that is you can or you can't do something. the verse does not say when, but rather if. and if the correct word is if, then sin must have the upper hand, but then that is not true, for we know that God is greater than all others.

 2006/2/12 4:41Profile

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732

 Re: Chystallization-Study of the Epistle of James

There is some straw in James, but not all the points of this book are straw. To decide what is straw and what is not straw needs a top discernment.

So this is what Witness Lee teaches as the "high peak of the divine revelation?"

While James does seem to emphasize different aspects of the Gospel compared to Paul's portrayal, it is rash to assume that faith and works can't be harmonized.

Critiquing James epistle as straw (partially) because it offers contrast to Pauls' epistles is like questioning the bass clef of a Bach Fugue because it's different then the treble clef. The two lines may be moving in different directions at times, but they do not produce dissonance or discordance...only a richer harmony that unifies the whole composition into something more profound then just the melodic themes we like to hum.

To continue the analogy... music appreciation and theory takes a lifetime of work...why would we expect to judge scripture any faster? If there is something we don't understand about scripture, the straw is in our ears...not in the text. (Maybe that's why Paul calls them "itching ears".;-))

Just my 2 cents on this "controversy."


Mike Compton

 2006/2/12 5:54Profile

Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37590
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11


Perfect is relative in the sense that a new born child may be perfect while still needing daily improvement and growth.


I am not trying to attack this simple word picture that you quoted but really how is a child "perfect"? We all have faults even in our physical bodies and minds, we are definetly subject to our enviroment in some extent to our "condition"?

SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2006/2/12 10:06Profile

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3311


I know man was created in the image of God and are all born sinful as a result of the sin of Adam,
we are all born fully sinful there is no moral
good in us. :-?


 2006/2/12 10:12Profile

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3311



Rebecca5 wrote:
Im one of the few who believe that christians can live without sin.

Yes, I can testify to that :-P
Just kidding folks.

No child of God will live a sin-proof life until after they die and leave this "body of death,For he that is dead is freed from sin" (Romans 6:7). Jesus was not sin-proof but sinless. If He were incapable of sinning while living in his body upon the earth, then the temptations that He overcame were not temptations at all. Jesus truly had to be able to sin in order to overcome sin. Otherwise, all the temptations would have been a lie and Jesus would have been part of that lie.


 2006/2/12 10:22Profile

 Re:"What is Christian Perfection"?

Rebecca5 wrote:
Im one of the few who believe that christians can live without sin.


Stever responds:

For years I tried to walk the line- to always do good, to treat my brother as myself, to never lie, never cheat, never commit adultery, etc. etc. etc..

Then, I read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew and my world turned upside down.

Christ brought to life the true meaning of the 10th Commandment when he gave the Sermon on the Mount. Up until that very day, men were not aware that just looking at another woman in lust made them just as guilty as committing the very act of adultery. Jesus Christ explained to them how it had been from the beginning, only man could never see it. Being angry at our brother makes us just as guilty as murder (lying in wait and killing another).

No one could ever meet this standard except Jesus Christ. We are all born with the sin nature that we have inherited from Adam. Christ is the only one who was able to keep the standard. We are saved based upon our relationship to HIM, and our position in HIM.

Christ received His blood from the Holy Spirit, and we all received our blood from our fathers, who are in the line of Adam. In paternity suits, the fathers blood is always the determining factor in determining the paternity of the newborn. Christ's blood came from up on high, by the Holy Spirit. That is why He never sinned, even though he was tempted as you and I are daily!

God bless,


p.s If we were all able to keep the 10th Commandment, we would most certainly not break the other 9!!

Matthew 5:20-41
"20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22. But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24. Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27. Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31. It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32. But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33. Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34. But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35. Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38. Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39. But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47. And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

P.S.S. Sorry if this is a little long, I just wanted to document Christ's Words.

 2006/2/12 17:03

Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481

 Re: what is christian perfection?

i do not have the faintest idea. i have never had it or witnessed it in reality in 42 years of "faithful" service.jimp

 2006/2/12 17:09Profile

Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131



jimp wrote:
i do not have the faintest idea. i have never had it or witnessed it in reality in 42 years of "faithful" service.jimp

BINGO! An honest answer and an honest self evaluation.

If we say that we have no sin,we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 2006/2/12 18:15Profile

Joined: 2006/2/13
Posts: 7

 Re: Christian perfection

It is true that in ourselves there is no perfection but in I Cor. 1:30 it say " of God are ye in Christ Jesus". God has placed us in His Son and we are the righteousness of God in Him. All our righteousness is as filthy rags but God doesn't view us that way, thank God, but through the finished work of Jesus Christ. When we went down into that watery grave we came up to walk in newness of life. Old things are passed away and all things are new, so reckon yourself to be dead in Christ. I am crucified with Christ nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me. We are a new creation and that is the way God views us, in His son.


 2006/2/13 0:54Profile

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