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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : "You shall love the Lord"

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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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 Re:

When Elihu states, "...My words come from my upright heart; my lips utter pure knowledge, the Spirit of God had made me and the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:3-4 Is Elihu speaking of his physical existence or is he speaking of a spiritual existence?

"Although MY HOUSE IS NOT SO WITH GOD, yet He has made with me AN EVERLASTING COVENANT, ordered in all things and secure, FOR THIS IS ALL MY SALVATION AND ALL MY DESIRE; will He not make it increase? But the sons of rebellion shall all be as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands." 2 Samuel 23:5-6 Is David talking about the same covenant we have? Does David include himself in this covenant? Are the sons of rebellion part of this covenant?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/22 11:20Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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 Re:

Hi Jeff
your quote When Elihu states, "...My words come from my upright heart; my lips utter pure knowledge, the Spirit of God had made me and the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:3-4 Is Elihu speaking of his physical existence or is he speaking of a spiritual existence?


the phrase the Spirit of God had made me and the breath of the Almighty gives me life is most likely a parallelism, a Hebrew poetic form where the same thing is said twice in two different ways to emphasise a point. He is claiming to have inspiration and authority equal to Job's. The presence of the Spirit of God does not mean that such a person is 'born again'. You will recall the likes of Balaam and Caiaphas who brought forth God's word but had not covenant relationship with Him. Neither was Balaam's donkey born again, although it brought the word of God to Balaam.


your quote "Although MY HOUSE IS NOT SO WITH GOD, yet He has made with me AN EVERLASTING COVENANT, ordered in all things and secure, FOR THIS IS ALL MY SALVATION AND ALL MY DESIRE; will He not make it increase? But the sons of rebellion shall all be as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands." 2 Samuel 23:5-6
David referring here to the unique Davidic covenant made with David's family. In the absolute sense this was fulfilled in Christ, David's greater son, and 'of David's house'.

This covenant has to do with David's dynasty.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/22 12:39Profile
rookie
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 Re:

In terms of Elihu, what if it is not a parallelism, what if the life he speaks of is Christ? "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life--THE LIFE was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that ETERNAL LIFE which WAS with the Father and manifested to us." 1 John 1:1-2 John speaks of Jesus as being the ETERNAL LIFE. This eternal life was with the Father before He came to earth.

In terms of Baalam, I believe he was a prophet of God and had a righteous standing before Him. What the example teaches us is that we can choose to walk away from our Lord. Also the Holy Spirit as you witnessed can do mighty things.

In terms of your explaination of the covenant with David, the beginning of the verse states, "Although my house is not so with God," This I believe states that the covenant is only between David and God. Also because it is an everlasting covenant and not a promise, it is not a one time thing. If you say the covenant would be established 1000 years later, then according to your definition of what a promise and covenant consist of is not what we see here in Scripture. In effect, this covenant would then have an uninterupted line of Jewish kings to this day.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/22 16:17Profile
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 Re:

In terms of your explaination of the covenant with David, the beginning of the verse states, "Although my house is not so with God," This I believe states that the covenant is only between David and God. Also because it is an everlasting covenant and not a promise, it is not a one time thing. If you say the covenant would be established 1000 years later, then according to your definition of what a promise and covenant consist of is not what we see here in Scripture. In effect, this covenant would then have an uninterupted line of Jewish kings to this day.

The 'everlasting' (age enduring) covenant was with David, and his family were blessed 'for David's sake'. Just as God's covenant was with Noah and his family were blessed because they were right related to Noah. The word 'everlasting' has to be understood in context. There are several 'everlasting' things which have already passed away.

God promised to 'build a house for David' meaning establish a dynasty. It was David's house, it was David's Temple (David designed it and provided all materials). David had an amazing experience of God at a time when the Old Covenant was virtually in suspense; the altar and the mercy seat had become separated and days of atonement could not have taken place. David's experience was wonderful and thrilling. He seemed to live outside the normal covenant of his day. Sacrifice and offerings you have not required; that went against 500 years of revelation. David adds to the implications of justification by faith and his additions are found in Rom 4, but it is still Romans 4 and not Romans 5. The Old Covenant was glorious, David's Covenant relationship with God was even more glorious, but neither compare with the Glory of the New Covenant.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/22 16:46Profile
rookie
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 Re:

"...Jesus Christ, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God." Hebrews 3:1-4 Here it says that Moses was faithful in God's house. And it is Jesus who built the house. Would David or Solomon also be considered to be faithful in His house?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/22 18:00Profile
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 Re:

as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
Hi Jeff
You didn't quite finish the quotation did you?
as Moses also was faithful in all His house, as a servant.

This is how Wesley distinguished his intellectual conversion from regeneration. Wesley distinguishing his attitude of heart after Fetter Lane to that before Fetter Lane, by saying
"I had even then the faith of a servant, though not that of a son"

They were all faithful 'as servants', regeneratin produces sons.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/23 4:52Profile
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 Re:

I am sorry Ron it was not intentional. We are all bondservants in His house, so I don't understand the distinction you are making.

I understand what Wesley, in the sense, heard the voice. This is how I explain it. My heart has been quickened many times. And because of my experience my heart cries out abba father. Yet his regeneration does not prove your point about Moses' faith of a servant in Christ's house. If I might reverse the logic, Moses because he was only a servant, had only an intelectual relationship with Jesus. Even as he sat and spoke with God in the tabernacle as a man would face to face.

David spoke with his heart to God in the Psalms. Has any man wrote anything more profound than David in terms of the relationship he has with God. "The Lord said to my Lord..."

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/23 12:20Profile
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 Re:

I am simply repeating the fact that Christ's death, Resurrection and Sending of the Spirit brought in a new era called the New Covenant. It was viewed as future in the times of Ezekiel and Jeremiah. New Covenant is a phrase designed to draw attention to the fact that it is not Old Covenant.

The Old Testament saints, and modern saints too, are expected to be 'faithful stewards in God's house'. My reference to Moses was that a distinction is drawn in Hebrews between and older pattern and a new one. Christ's achievements were to 'bring many sons to glory'.

I have no intention of minimizing the Old Covenant, it was glorious. But the New Covenant is more glorious. The Old was fading, the New abides and increases.

I do not believe that Abraham, Moses, David etc were what the New Testament calls 'born again'. I do not believe regeneration was possible before the Holy Spirit was poured out in our hearts.

I am not a dispensationalist but I read that "by faith we undestand that the ages were framed by the word of God", so I try to understand how God has worked and will work in those 'ages'. I see, as AlmondBranch pointed out, that John is the greatest 'born of woman' and yet he that is 'least in the kingdom of God is greater than John'. What can that mean other than the fact that 'John was not in the kingdom of God' at the time of Christ's testimony? and yet according to John 3 entrance into the kingdom of God is by new birth. If John had been 'born again' he would have been in the kingdom of God. If the greatest, born of woman, was not in the kingdom why do we thing the others were?


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/23 15:45Profile
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 Re:

In terms of all who lived in faith before the resurrection of Christ, none had ascended into heaven for the way was not opened until Jesus' resurrection. "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven..." John 3:13 This includes John the Baptist. All lived in the bosom of Abraham. Also Jesus was distinguishing the difference of baptisms. As Paul wrote, one man sows another waters, but it is God who gives the increase. John's baptism only turned man to God for the remission of sin's. Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.

Also when Nicodemus came to Jesus, Jesus said you must be born from above...then He says to Nicodemus, "Most assuredly , I say to you, WE SPEAK what WE KNOW and TESTIFY WHAT WE HAVE SEEN, and you do not believe OUR WITNESS." John 3:11 Jesus spoke these words in the past tense and He and His disciples are the ones who witnessed this to those they preached to.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2003/12/23 16:07Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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 Re:

Hi Jeff
Also Jesus was distinguishing the difference of baptisms.
I wonder where you got this idea?

Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
when?

Also when Nicodemus came to Jesus, Jesus said you must be born from above...then He says to Nicodemus,
Actually, 'ye' plural. Not Nicodemus alone, that would have been 'thee'. So who is the 'ye'? those same disciples who witnessed this encounter with Nicodemus. They needed to hear this too.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/23 18:00Profile





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