SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Predestination and Free Will

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 Next Page )
PosterThread
PaulWiglaf
Member



Joined: 2005/8/31
Posts: 61
Hartselle, Alabama

 Re: Our One-Sidedness

A good book to read in general is R.A. Torrie's [i]Difficulties in the Bible[/i]; here is his stance on the Arminian/Calvinist (Free will/Predistination) issue:

Quote:
Our One-Sidedness

The eighth class of difficulties contains those that arise from the many-sidedness of the Bible. The broadest-minded man is yet one-sided; the truth is many-sided; and the Bible is all-sided. So, to our narrow thought, one part of the Bible seems to contradict another. For example, men as a rule are either Calvanistic or Arminian in their mental makeup, and some portions of the Bible are decidedly Calvinistic and present great difficulties to the Arminian type of mind, whereas other portions of the Bible are decidedly Arminian and present difficulties to the Calvanistic type of mind. Yet both sides are true.

Many men in our day are broad-minded enough to be able to grasp at the same time the Calvanistic side of the truth and the Arminian side of the truth, but some are not. And the Bible perplexes, puzzles, and bewilders them; however, the trouble is not with the Bible, but with their own lack of capacity for comprehensive thought. So, too, Paul seemed to contradict James, and James seemed sometimes to contradict Paul, and what Paul said in one place seems to contract what he said in another place. Nevertheless, the whole trouble is that our narrow minds cannot take in God's large truth.



Torrie goes on to say, "It is as necessarily difficult to put the facts of infinite being into the limited capacity of our finite intelligence as it is to put the ocean into a pint cup."

Therefore, on the issue of predestination, I find my mind troubled with, "How can a man be responsible for what God has willed him to do?" (such as Pharoah's hard being hardened); with Free Will, "How can Christ then say nothing can take us out of His hand?" (of course, my figuring is that, though no outside source can remove us, we ourselves can demand to be set down--like Lucifer being able to walk on God's holy hill, yet [in spite of being Second in Command] he rebelled).

Ultimately, let's seek to further the Gospel where ever we are, since we cannot trust to fate to bring people to Christ (esp. since Christ commissions us all to preach the gospel: Matt. 28:19,20)

In Christ,
Benjamin

 2005/12/21 17:14Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ironman,

I once met a woman whom I wanted to marry. Of all the woman in the world, I chose her to be my wife. I elected her. I chose her specifically for the purpose of being my wife and bearing my children. She was not the most beautiful woman on the planet, not the most good, but I favored her. I showed her my love and stood by her through many hardships.

At first, she was mine. She had great faith in me and wanted to be my wife. I knew this to be true in her heart. We enjoyed a happy and healthy relationship.

After some time, though, she began to lose interest in me. She had been looking at other men. Even though she bore a ring on her finger, a symbol of my promise to her, she still went chasing after other men.

Days past, and my heart was sore. The day came when she finally left me for another man. A man who did not measure up to what I could offer her. A man that who would never love her like I had. And yet, she still chose this other man and left me.

What could I do? Though I had chosen her, it was not her will to be with me. She did not want me. She left.

And so, the door opened to all women that I may choose anyone of them. I would take anyone who was willing to come to me. I wanted her to trust me and have faith in me. And so, I waited until that right woman came to me.

This is my experience, however, the Lord endured something similar.

The Lord's chosen people are the Israelites. The Lord made a promise to Abraham. Later, Jesus, King of the Jews, came to save the lost sheep of Israel. (Matthew 15:21-28) However, because the people of Israel rejected Him, the Lord opened the door for all to come. Anyone who will repent can come to the Lord.

It takes two to make a relationship. A marriage forms from a commitment of two.

Just as God has elected us and chosen us out of the world, so do we have to choose Him. Not everyone will choose Him. Our free will is essential for the purpose God has for us. We are to share in an eternal union of love with God. If we do not choose God, if we do not have free will and the ability to make that choice, then how can we have share in a union of love?

If we do not have free will, and all our choices are predetermined by God, then we can't be married to God in a union of love. For marriage can only come about by two people choosing each other making a commitment of love.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/12/21 17:15Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Praise God, Paul did not leave it there. Romans 7:23-25 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

God took care of every problem that man has. In Christ we are truly free of sin when we are in Christ Jesus. This is our salvation, I was saved in spirit, I am being save in soul, and I will be saved in body. 2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2005/12/21 17:29Profile
miller
Member



Joined: 2005/12/20
Posts: 1


 Re: Predestination and Free Will

Well hello there, I really appreciate the discussion.

The Bible certainly does teach predestination, but it teaches it in the context that God knows the hearts of man and will only commit himself to those who "diligently seek him," and those whose hearts are after him.

God would not repeatedly call after the rebellious children of Israel to repent and turn toward him and follow his ways and seek after justice, etc., if they had no ability to do so.

The Bible teaches that God's predestination is according to his foreknowledge, and that he "is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
God has done everything in his power to bring men to himself (except force them), but men still choose their own ways.

Do you guys think I've said what is biblically accurate?

-Caleb Miller

 2005/12/21 18:22Profile









 Re:

Beenblake wrote:

Quote:
Every human being that has free will can resist the will of God, but only because God allows us to have free will.



God has never given man the power over his own lump of clay, that power still is in the hands of God.

Lets read about this in Romans.

The question was raised, "Who hath resisted His will?"

The answer is:

Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Romans 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

I don't know about you but I see a God who prepares a people for honour and a people for dishonour, vessels of mercy, and vessels of wrath unto destruction.

Can we resist His will if He has afore ordained us to become whatever He chooses us to become?

His will scares the hell out of me, I am at His mercy to do whatever He wishes for me to be, whether that be in the lions den, or being burned alive, or being prepared for chop steak.

Whether to stand on the highest peak proclaiming His majesty or walking naked to and fro the earth, or eating bread with cow dung.

He may cause me to be a statesmen, a richman or poor. Whatever His purpose is He places that desire in me to accomplish that which He set His will to do. Who can resist Him?

He will harden my heart to bring to pass that which He may teach me and then soften it and return to me with mercy and grace.

It's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I have lived this Christian life for a number of years now, and I have never known what it means to have a free will. And to tell you the truth I don't want to know. His will is all I want to know, even though it may be hard, I'd rather continue this hard road than to soften with the teaching of a free will.

Merry Christmas
Karl






 2005/12/21 22:19
PaulWiglaf
Member



Joined: 2005/8/31
Posts: 61
Hartselle, Alabama

 Re:

Brothers and Sisters,

I only have one trouble with Predestination (Hey, Brother Karl, I agree, God's plan is far greater than anything I could come up with ;-) ): What of men like Hitler, Stalin, Domician, Pharoah, Kantz, etc.?

If they were the "vessels fitted for destruction", then how could they be blamed for being evil? Weren't they following the Will of God for their lives? What of the many false apostles, preachers, and the antichrist? Wouldn't they (esp. the antichrist) follow what God prophesies concerning them?

OR would it be that God is eternal, having past, present, and future ever before Him as though it were all [i]present[/i] unto Him, thereby knowing the route of Time itself?

See, how can a man be blamed for being vile if he was following his [i]wyrd[/i] (fate) to disobey God's laws, statutes, and His Son's sacrifice? How can one disbelieve if one is forced to be blind, hard-hearted, and dead in sins?

We've been trying to just argue from the saved side, but the damnation of sinners is final if they are not elected by God, not if they repent of their ways (according to Predestination); why then would God waste His breath to tell all of Israel to "Repent ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings" (Jeremiah 25), knowing that few would turn? Wouldn't it be better to inform the prophets to go to "so and so", rather than all?

Indeed, predestination says, "Some [i]can't[/i] come before God"; Free will says, "Some people [i]choose[/i] not be saved."

I'd rather fight this war hoping that all I come in contact with can come to Christ, rather than praying, "Lord, place a mark on every man that would show who is elected and who is damned".

Just some thoughts,
Benjamin

 2005/12/21 22:38Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

I am sorry, I don't understand how anybody can call God unfair if He has predestinated anyone to destruction. Every single one of us from Adam to the last death at midnight tonight deserve death and hell, and beyond. It is a miracle that God has given His only Son that some, or even one that would not receive their just come up pens.

If we blame anyone we should blame Satan, he is the one that God had to make a plan to show that Satan is wrong in his selfish want to be God attitude with all of creation looking on and wanting to know the outcome.

We have enough intelligence to know that God cannot allow Satan to prosper in his endeavor. In choosing a being that is lower that the angles to defeat and show all creation who God really is and He is all about Mercy and Love, but will not allow anybody to have His Throne, there is no legacy when God dies and wills everything to someone else. There will be no take over of the Throne, even Jesus Christ when His work is done He will return all those that have been given Him to the Father and also subject His own self to The Father and The Father will become All In All. 1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

I just praise God all the time that I even had a chance to be one of His son's. How could this be I did not deserve it and certainly could not achieve it by my good works. It is such a pity that we are still arguing whether God is fair when people go to hell, which every one of us deserves. It is a much greater pity that we are not on our knees in tears of joy that This God that everyone keeps trying to make Him unfair, has given even one of us mercy and Grace and made us son's and daughter's of God in Christ Jesus.

Merry Christmas, everyone, In Christ: Phillip

Christmas is just another day we can praise God for His Son and our undeserved Grace and mercy.
Lets make everyday Christmas. I vote yes.


_________________
Phillip

 2005/12/22 0:13Profile
gzus
Member



Joined: 2004/10/8
Posts: 31


 Re:

Man is free to choose that which he desires. True freedom exists in the ability to choose what you desire.

God is completely sovereign and man is really making real choices and he is really responsible.
God never forces anyone to do anything against their will. He changes their will.

Before Christ shone His light on us and enabled us to see Him for who He is, in our unregenerate state our desire was ALWAYS sin.
Our will was in bondage to sin. We will never choose anything other than sin.

Then God does a work of regeneration in the unbeliever and changes their will and at that point a sinner is Justified, regaining our free will, which is the "ability to rightly choose that which is right" is the process of sanctification.

If Christ has set you free, you are free indeed!


Peace and God Bless!

I highly recommend reading a book called "God's Greater Glory", I think the author's name is Bruce Ware. If you are willing to really wrestle in your mind about this topic, read Jonathan Edwards' book Freedom of the Will.

 2005/12/22 0:33Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi!man chose death in adam and was at enmity with God;and still is condemed already. that is justice. God comes to man and adopts them by his love; and that is mercy.man is the created and God is the creator.YOU MUST BE BORN FROM ABOVE...you cannot birth yourself. thank Him for choosing you. preach to the masses,demonstrate His love in humility and purity and God wil even use someone like you or me in his plan. jimp

 2005/12/22 0:39Profile
jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

Quote:

sj wrote:
is our predestination's start point when we accept Christ?

Yes. That's when i believe our predestination starts.

sj,

What about Paul saying he was chosen from his mothers womb? He realized his election began before he made any choice to accept Christ.

Still not convinced? "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; he will drink no wine or liqour, and he will be FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT WHILE YET IN HIS MOTHERS WOMB" Luke 1:15

This quote is talking about John the Baptist and obviously he did not "accept Christ" yet did he?
These two examples alone utterly destroy the theories that try to explain away predestination(at least in my mind). God interfered with both of these men before they made ANY choices, and he did with you also, weather you care to accept it or not.

As a side note, and this is an honest question and not some sort of set up, but where does the Bible teach that God somehow "woo's" us?

 2005/12/22 5:28Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy