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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Predestination and Free Will

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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

How might this thought correspond to what is taught in Roman's 9?

2Tim. 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/12/19 15:00Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro bub
i'm not sure how the scripture you quote about Christ saying a kingdom divided can't stand contradicts the one of the Lord saying through Paul that the potter makes vessels of mercy and of wrath :-( could you explain that?

as far as how i plan my day, i used to do as i pleased until i realized that while i was in the Father's permissive will i really needed to be in line with His perfect will so now i try to do as He would have me do. you may want to keep doing as you please but i don't...i do not always carry this out but i thank the Lord He has quickened me to being sympathetic to His perfect will.

Also remember Christ quoted many O.T. scriptures, in fact those are the only scriptures he quoted because the n.t. wasn't complete as we know it. the o.t. isn't just a must read but if we don't understand it and study it, the new testament means nothing to us. One could try and say tha the o.t. is done but it is abolished in as much as the law is the key to righteousness, we are not exempt from following the law coz Christ said so Himself but we are reckoned righteous through Christ and not the law. Some may say that the Lor doesn't judge as harshly in the n.t. but look at revelation and annaias and sapphira...we had better not neglect the O.t.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/12/19 15:07Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
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 Re:

bro SJ

Quote:
If what you say is true, then why preach the Gospel? Wont they be saved anyway? If man has no choice in the matter then we are all just Robots responding to our programming (saved or not) and we are of all things NOT created in Gods Image. What else does it mean that we are created in Gods Image but that we are moral creatures that can choose between right and wrong? Animals cannot sin, therefore they cannot be damned however neither can they choose Christ over Satan, so neither can they be saved. This doctrine demeans redemption from the Glorious power of God to take those hostile to Him and make them willing servants by the power of His Love and turns Him into the Puppet-master God the comptuer programmer God who is so unworthy of Love that He has to force people to love Him.



why preach the gospel? to find the vessels of mercy...read Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 and you will see that it is so. We are created in God's image in that we are tripartite beings, body soul and spirit as He is tripartite, Father Son and Holy SPirit. What the Lord is saying to me is that we have gotten the concept of free will wrong. it's not that we can do any old thing but we can do anything in the confines of the Father's will. I don't see how this keeps the Father from turning those against Him to ones being for Him because we are all born at odds with Him because of our sinful nature and are saved still.

our concept of what free will is is wrong. this predestination is a mystery which needs that we seeek the Lord on it with all diligence and if need be we must cast away whatever doctrines we hold dear if the Lord reveals them to be contrary to what He would have us believe...not many of us are willing to do so hence all the false traditions in the "church" which we hold dear.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/12/19 15:13Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
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 Re:

bro Jaysaved
it is a hard thing to understand isn't it? let us seek the Lord for the revelation of this mystery. i believe though that our concept of free will is wrong and letting the Lord correct us on that will make a huge difference. the text is plain enough, the hard part comes in when we try and make it fit into what we believe, i think we should adjust our beliefs as the Lord leads. Correct us Lord.AMEN


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Farai Bamu

 2005/12/19 15:18Profile









 Re:

Ironman, Thanks for your reply and sorry for the mix up on the Paul quote. The reason that I used the quote from Jesus that the "kingdom divided cannot stand" is that the quote from Paul is saying that God makes (some) junk that is opposed to the righteous vessels. The kingdom is divided in this way: some destined for salvation, some destined for damnation, according to this understanding. And these are opposed to one another, without a chance of reconciliation.

As some others on this site will affirm, I'm not a big fan of Paul. Give me Christ everytime. (Although I appreciate the efforts of Paul in spreading the Gospel, I have a very hard time putting aside his past, murderous behavior. I think that anyone who undertakes such things may be forgiven, but also may ever more be affected by them.) But I don't want to derail this string with this, so PM me if you want to discuss.

Have a blessed Christmas, all.

Bubbaguy

 2005/12/19 15:33
sj
Member



Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 83


 Re:

Not to derail the post..but since i dont know how to pm. I say this:
Christ chose Paul and approved of him. To question Paul is to question Christ. You cannot accept Christ and reject Paul for this reason:
Christ spoke not on His own but by the Spirit,
Paul spoke not of his own but by the Spirit.
To reject any Scripture (Peter says Paul is Scripture)is to reject the Spirit (who inspired it) which is to reject Christ which is to reject the Father.
This is why Christ stressed that He did NOT speak of His own authority but by the Spirit of the Father. So He tied His own authority to the Father, so to question Christs choice of Paul or to question Paul AT ALL is to question God Himself.
To not believe that the Holy Spirit can speak flawlessly though flawed men is to have more faith in the power of man than God. That's not good...

 2005/12/19 15:49Profile
sj
Member



Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 83


 Re:

Forced Love is not love.
If God makes us Love Him then it is not Love plain and simple. Calvanists insist that God makes people convert against their will. This is by definition NOT love.

Also, yes we have a threefold nature just like God, but we have a moral nature just like God.
He can choose between good and evil (of course evil is an abomination to Him so He would never choose it) but it stands that He could otherwise Christs temptations was just a bit of good acting.
Man, who is in Gods nature, can choose between good and evil. Otherwise all the commands in the Scripture to choose are mere cruel mockerys if we cannot "choose this day whom you will serve." It's mere theatrics according to pure Calvanism.
It becomes nonsense to say "God so loved the word that he gave His ownly begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
and "Whosoever will may come" and most cruel yet is "Come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden and i will give you rest"
This doctrine of Christ only dying for the "elect" is what held people in bondage in Finneys day brother, they wanted to be saved but was instructed that they could not be unless God had enabled them.
Finney taught that it wasnt that you cant be saved it's that you wont [make the decision to] be saved.

Ephesians 1 teaches that Christ is the predestined one and that we become part of him when we believe. We enter into His predestination as it were.

Romans 9 has to be taken in context with other Scripture like:
2 Timothy 2:20 "20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."

A man can choose to go from being a vessel of dishonor to a vessel of honor by repentance and faith in Christ.

It also says "If a man." not "If an elect man"
In other words the invitation is open to anyone, if God intended it to be exclusive He would have framed the invitations that way. If the Gospel is not to everyone how are your hearers supposed to know if it applies to them or not?
To say "Those who respond must be the elect" sounds like an excuse more than a theology.
Not that you do that, i'm just saying...

Not to sound rough, but Calvanism killed itself. It led to passivity for the most part (some exceptions allowed) and so it died the death of time. I admire Whitfield and others like him but i cant say i understand them. Why even pray for someone who is going to be converted anyway and if they are not you waste your prayers on an infidel who has NO chance of conversion and you never know who is who. At least i can see hope for every one of my prayers because there's no gurantee ANYONE will be lost and there remains the good chance that ANYONE might be saved.

Calvanism is a hopless system it is the doctrine of Evolution did you know that? Everything is predetermined. It is the doctrine of Islam "if Allah wills it." i dont then see how it can be the doctrine of Christ also.

 2005/12/19 16:34Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

sj,

Please explain how Romans 9 is being taken out of context.

Thank you.

Edit:
You are saying that it needs to be taken in context with the other scriptures and I would like you to explain more about that.

Thanks

 2005/12/19 19:34Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

John 16:7-12 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Who is the One that convicts of sin, and Judgement? Why does the world need to be convicted of sin and judgement? Who is Righteousness? Is it the devil that makes me do it? This plainly shows that the devil is judged already and we can't blame our unbelief on Him anymore. All that we have for salvation is from the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. No person would believe if it were not for the Holy Spirit in the world convicting of sin, and we cannot even repent unless God chooses to allow it.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

We cannot acknowledge the truth unless God give us repentance. Once all this has been accomplished all we have left is to believe, and to those that won't believe, they are already chosen for destruction. Destruction was chosen for us by Adams sin in the garden and unless God steps in and provides all, even to the ability to repent and believe, the ones left are these that are the ones that are chosen for destruction. Destruction was already there, but God has chosen some for honor that God might be glorified. This is how it was all predestinated before the foundation of the World that we might be in Christ.

Ephesians 1:4-12 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

God did not choose to destroy endividuals, they were already destroyed in the garden, all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

God did choose those that would believe for His Glory. This is about as close as I have come so far to the Glory of Predestination and Choice. And Yet the Holy Spirit is still revealing the things that Jesus said to the apostles that could not receive at that time. We are receiving those things now and will continue to receive them throughout all eternity. Christ in you the Hope of Glory. It is no longer us who live but Christ who lives in us that we would be Glory to the Father by His only Begotten first fruits Son of those that become son's.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

We are identified with Christ and in Christ, by His works. Paul from his mothers womb chosen to preach this mystery and even before that.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, (my works) then Christ is dead in vain.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/12/19 20:26Profile
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 Re:

bubbaguy
ok we will go back and forth through the private message then


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Farai Bamu

 2005/12/20 0:56Profile





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