| Poster | Thread | Agent001
Member
Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
| | Re: | | Some good information on the topic:
[url=http://www.victorshepherd.on.ca/Wesley/wesley.htm#Wesley]http://www.victorshepherd.on.ca/Wesley/wesley.htm#Wesley[/url]
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Sam
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|  2005/12/20 12:55 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
This is just the sort of thing that theologians do. The ordo salutis for the most part, is sandwhiched all together. However, the theologian after the sandwhich is made, attempts to explain how it was made. This is quite good when talking about the bun. But what was put on next, the turkey, mayo, mustard, or tomato? It makes for great discussion, but has little to do with anything else.
This may surprize some but I am personally really only interested in 'pastoral theology'. By which I mean truth which affects the saints. I have studied these things in some detail as a result of seeking to support the saints in their quest for God's full provision in salvation. Sometimes that means you have to dis-assemble the sandwich to see what they have been feeding on. ;-)
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/12/21 4:47 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
"About a quarter before nine, while he was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. 1 felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone, for salvation; and an assurance was given me that he had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death." It was May 24, 1738.
This is a quotation from the URL posted by Agent 001. I wonder why so many end the quotation at this point. This point is clearly 'the moment of justifying faith' but is it more? A fuller quotation can be found [url=http://academics.smcvt.edu/relstudies_courses/RS130/John%20Wesley.htm]here[/url] which included the phrase...
Quote:
I began to pray with all my might for those who had in a more especial manner despitefully used me and persecuted me. I then testified openly to all there what I now first felt in my heart.
Now this begins to sound like the 'love of God shed aboad' in his heart 'by the Holy Spirit.' which most Wesleyan exponents of 'Sanctification' would regard as part of the 'second experience'. Interesting?
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/12/21 4:57 | Profile | Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
| | Re: | | From philologo's link: Quote:
In the evening I went very unwillingly to a society in Aldersgate Street, where one was reading Luthers preface to the Epistle to the Romans. About a quarter before nine, while he was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone, for salvation; and an assurance was given me that He had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death.
I began to pray with all my might for those who had in a more especial manner despitefully used me and persecuted me. I then testified openly to all there what I now first felt in my heart. But it was not long before the enemy suggested, This cannot be faith; for where is thy joy? Then was I taught that peace and victory over sin are essential to faith in the Captain of our salvation; but that, as to the transports of joy that usually attend the beginning of it, especially in those who have mourned deeply, God sometimes giveth, sometimes withholdeth, them according to the counsels of His own will.
It would be a real stretch for anyone to take the second paragraph as support for Wesley's "second experience."
So yes, interesting.
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Sam
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| | 2005/12/21 9:18 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
t would be a real stretch for anyone to take the second paragraph as support for Wesley's "second experience."
And I am not doing so. :-) I have read and re-read this stage of Wesley's life so often, trying to get to grips with his experience. The evidence is very full. He referred to this as the time when 'faith came' and further described it as the faith of a 'son' rather than that of a 'slave'. But 'when faith came' is exactly the way Paul describes the coming of the Spirit in Gal. 3:23,25.
Personally, I can find no scriptural evidence to support the 'second blessing' theme of Wesleyan Sanctification. Wesley himself, it is often said, constantly preached it but never claimed to have received it. I think he [u]did[/u] receive 'it'. I think he received 'it' at the same time as the 'first experience'.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/12/21 9:45 | Profile | KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Though I am limited in my reading of Wesley, the closest experience I know of his to a "baptism in the Spirit" or "sanctification" experience he had is found on p. 67 of Basil Miller's biography of him, "John Wesley," where Wesley says of a prayer meeting he was part of on New Years Eve of 1738-39:
Quote:
"About three in the morning," says Wesley, describing the service, "as we were continuing in instant prayer, the power of God came mightily upon us, insomuch as many cried out for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground. As soon as we were recovered a little from that awe and amazement at the presence of His majesty we broke out in one voice, "We praise Thee, O God, we acknowledge Thee to be the Lord!"
It was only a couple months later that Wesley was preaching to the masses open air, and with great results. In my opinion, Pentecostal though I am, I believe it was at this time that Wesley was baptized in the Holy Spirit- tongues or no tongues. If compared to accounts in the book of Acts, or Azusa Street, there seems to be some great similarities.
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Jimmy H
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| | 2005/12/21 13:17 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
"About three in the morning," says Wesley, describing the service, "as we were continuing in instant prayer, the power of God came mightily upon us, insomuch as many cried out for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground. As soon as we were recovered a little from that awe and amazement at the presence of His majesty we broke out in one voice, "We praise Thee, O God, we acknowledge Thee to be the Lord!"
KingJimmy
Of course I wouldn't want to start another hare running but this also sounds not unlike Toronto! This sounds more like a 'revival' happening that a personal 'spirit baptism' to me. There is at least one occasions in the Acts where we read of something similar, I think.
Quote:
And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. (Acts 4:31, KJVS)
This was experienced by folk who had already experienced a 'spirit baptism'.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/12/21 16:11 | Profile | KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
I wouldn't want to start another hare running but this also sounds not unlike Toronto!
Shhh... not in this thread :)
Though on a personal note, it sounds more like a somewhat typical altar call in any Pentecostal church (like mine) with people being "slain in the Spirit." Though typically (not always) it has been my experience such phenomenon only occured after people have laid hands on eachother. Though I remember once two men next to eachother standing there praying, and suddenly just collapsing onto eachother on our altar/bench. Both were perfectly fine, though quite out like lights for a while.
Wesley is not reporting animal sounds here :)
Anyway...
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Jimmy H
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| | 2005/12/21 16:22 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
This was experienced by folk who had already experienced a 'spirit baptism'.
I was in a service recently where a young lady about 16 years old was praying for a friend whose mother was thought to have cancer and was going in for testing. She was weeping exceedingly (as she often does in prayer) and suddenly fell to the ground crying out to God. To me, I wondered in amazement that a young person could feel such compassion for a friend and cry out to God on their behalf in such a way; but wondered if it may have been viewed by some as some sort of flakey 'manifestation'.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2005/12/21 16:28 | Profile |
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