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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The greatest lie and deception of most of the new translations is to take away the faith of Christ and change it into our faith in Jesus Christ. Paul makes it clear that our faith is of and by Christ in us. Heavenly faith not earthly faith.

New International Version (NIV)

20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

To call this a 'lie and deception' is nonsense. The NIV etc is a perfectly legitimate although, in my view, mistaken interpretation.

The phrase 'faith of Christ' is simply "pisteOs Christou" as used in Rom. 3:22; Gal. 2:16; 3:22; Phil. 3:9; in the KJV is simply the genitive form where the words 'faith' and 'Christ' are both in the genitive form. This could equally be translated:
'the faith of Christ"
"Christ's faith'
"the faith belonging to Christ"
"the faith pertaining to Christ"

Rom. 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by [u]faith of Jesus Christ[/u] unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by [u]the faith of Jesus Christ[/u], even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal. 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by [u]faith of Jesus Christ[/u] might be given to them that believe.

Phil. 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through [u]the faith of Christ[u/], the righteousness which is of God by faith: Furthermore I would have expected to have found the definitive article in the Greek. This would have given 'the faith' as we have it in many of the older versions. However, the Greek does not say 'the faith' but simply 'faith'. This is not pointing to the distictive and unique faith of Christ himself but to the 'kind' of faith being referenced. I would like to suggest a more neutral route for ascertaining its ture meaning. The phrase is used of 'Abraham's faith' in...Rom. 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that [u]faith of our father Abraham[/u], which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Rom. 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of [u]the faith of Abraham[/u]; who is the father of us all, These two references to 'the faith of Abraham' have exactly the same grammtical construction as the 'faith of Christ' references. Now all we need to do is ask ourselves the question 'what could this construction mean?' If we take our earlier examples that would give

'the faith of Abraham"
"Abraham's faith'
"the faith belonging to Abraham"
"the faith pertaining to Abraham"

It seems obvious to me that the phrase means 'Abraham's kind of faith' or Abrahamic faith. This is a vital truth because not all faith is 'justifying faith', but Abrahamic faith is, plainly. This is why I concentrated so much on Abraham's faith in the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=category&cid=305]Abraham, my Friend[/url] meditations. We know that this phrase does NOT mean 'Abraham's faith' INSTEAD of 'my faith'. Nor does it mean 'my faith in Abraham'. It simple means 'Abraham-type faith'. If we take this understanding to the 'faith of Christ' passages we shall see that the phrase could be interpreted to mean' 'Christ-type faith'. As such the NIV etc would not be 'lies and deceptions' but simply an interpretation.

What is this faith? It almost certainly includes 'faith in Christ' but has another dimension too; it is the faith of a Son. John Wesley was often challenged as regards his own personal testimony by people who knew of his prior activities in care and missionary venture and demanded 'how can you say you did not have faith before that time?' Wesley's answer was instructive 'I had' he said, 'even then, the faith of a slave but not that of a Son'. The 'faith of Christ' is preeminantly the 'faith of a Son'.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/12/7 7:07Profile
groh_frog
Member



Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


 Re:

I wanted to share a sermon by Chuck Smith that KrispyKrittr sent me. It deals pretty well with addressing some of the problems is assuming that "the oldest texts are the best" as NIV and some of the other modern translations do. It also lays a good perspective on why he uses KJV above the others.

http://server.firefighters.org/kjv/projects/firefighters/kjv_web/html/sermons.htm

Under the "Foundation of the Word" column, it's called "The Basis For Our Bible".

Grace and Peace...

 2005/12/17 12:38Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi Christinyou...!

Quote:
The greatest lie and deception of most of the new translations is to take away the faith of Christ and change it into our faith in Jesus Christ.

It is [i]dangerous[/i] (and [u][i]wrong[/i][/u]) to label the translations that you do not agree with as containing "lies" and "deceptions."

Even if you do not agree with the translation of the NIV (1978), are you really so bold as to state that the translators [u]intentionally[/u] altered their translation to suit their own doctrinal beliefs? That is a very [b]bold[/b] allegation -- one in which I doubt seriously that you can prove.

One of the biggest problems with the arguments made by many of those that discredit other translations is the denial that [u]any[/u] other good translation exists. Many wholeheartedly feel that the KJV is the "[i]preserved[/i]" Word of God as spoken about in the Bible. Such adherants feel that all other Bible owners/users are [i]deceived[/i]. To many (especially non-English speakers), the idea that the KJV is the only "perfect version" is [u]silly[/u]. But the "defenders of the faith, er, version" continue to consistantly compare other versions by the KJV.

It is my opinion that this argument needs to be modified from verse-by-verse or version-by-version comparisons, to examination of the root texts. Why do some prefer to hold in high regard the "Received Text" while at the same time dismissing all others? What other texts and manuscripts are available? Are they accurate? Are the "Dead Sea Scrolls" of any value? Etc... These types of questions may prove helpful, and quite interesting.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2005/12/17 13:51Profile
brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

Just a question??: What is THE Word of God!? Is the kjv THE word of God?? Or the niv THE word of God!??? Etc... You know where I'm going. Are all translations THEE word of God?? Just a thought.


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Brent

 2005/12/17 18:21Profile
groh_frog
Member



Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


 Re:

Hey brent, this is the question that this column was started for, and many before it.

I'll tell you that I was an NIV lover. I like the language, and it was easy to use. KJV seemed crazy. And seeing so many push thier meer opinions on the subject almost made me an "anything but KJVer". Listen to the sermon posted below, and it'll give you a little more perspective on some things to consider. I'll tell you straight up that I respect KJV a whole lot more than NIV now. Is KJV the only one that a person can be saved by? No. But there's some factors to think about when you listen to that sermon by Chuck Smith.

Grace and Peace...

 2005/12/17 21:09Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi groh_frog...

Quote:
And seeing so many push thier meer opinions on the subject almost made me an "anything but KJVer".

I have had the opposite experience -- especially amongst some believers in the forums. There are some "KJV-only" believers that frequently post their opinions in the forums. Some are vehemently opposed to [u]any[/u] translation besides the KJV. Many of them write as if they have "seen the light" concerning Bible translations -- and feel that others are still in cognitive "darkness" for using versions [u]other than[/u] the KJV.

I prefer to use the KJV. But this has nothing to do with its supposed "infallibility." The fact that this English translation has been the most common since it was "authorized" by King James in 1611 has led to its nearly universal use in the English speaking world. There are vast amounts of research aids for the KJV. But I also use the NIV, NASV and a few others. Of course, I use all Bible translations with careful scrutiny -- including the KJV.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2005/12/17 23:54Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

What is satan's greatest deception in the church?
Galatians 1:6-7 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

What is Paul's Gospel of Christ? Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

What Gospel is Paul speading of? Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

This is the final Gospel that Paul calls a mystery which is 1/5 of the Bible, the rest if prophecy which is not for the Church, the Body of Christ. Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Paul's mystery which he call his ministry and his Gospel and if preached in any other way than we have heard him preach they are accursed.

This is Paul's mystery and his Gospel, Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

If any one takes away from this Gospel they are cursed.
KJV.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Phl 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Check other versions of the bible and see how Satan us new translations to change the faith of the Son of God in us, changed to faith in the Son of God. One is satans lie the other is the truth of the Faith of the Son of God, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Not my faith in Jesus Christ, it will do nothing except as my earthly faith, to make me religious by my own works and unable to understand Heavenly Truths by the heavenly Faith of Christ that is in me. It must be the Faith of the Son of God, not faith in the Son of God. The Faith of Jesus Christ in me that has given me Faith in Jesus Christ, but not my faith in Christ to make me who I am. That takes His Faith in me that makes me a son of God, God's Child headed for His House to be with our Heavenly Father for ever.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2005/12/18 5:34Profile
groh_frog
Member



Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


 Re:

I should have been a little more clear in what I said earlier. What I meant was that there are so many people who push their opinions as fact regarding KJV that it almost turned me off to KJV entirely. They use KJV as the standard to judge other translations, assuming that it is the infallible version. Nice idea, but it's the wrong way to inspect this subject. Did you know that there is no such thing as the 1611 KJV any more? KJV itself has been revised many times over, and thankfully so, unless you don't see the mistake in "Thou Shalt Commit Adultery", and other mistakes.

Why is it the best, coming from a historical perspective? Look at Mark 16:9-20. It's the story of the woman at the well. Now, if you're looking at NIV, it will tell you that "The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses don't have Mark 16:9-20." By most reliable, they assume that the older the text, the more accurate. This particular missing section is based off of the Alexandrian Texts, which were several hundred years older than the oldest known texts. It's also the base for the Wescott and Hort texts.

Is this a good assumption? It could have been, except for the fact that some of the church fathers have quoted from this section- several hundred years before the Alexandrian Texts were made.

Now, I'm not a Bible Scholar, but if you have a question, I really urge you to listen to Chuck Smith's sermon (webpage posted on a below post). I've learned a lot, as he clarifies a lot of the "haze" on this battlefield.

Grace and Peace...

 2005/12/18 8:49Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

I am sure that there are many mistakes in all translations. It is the Holy Spirits responsibility to bring us into all truth. He will give us truth and nothing but truth and He will surely make up for man's mistakes.

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Sounds to me like the Holy Spirit will reveal by Christ all things that He will speak, and He will show us things to come. Interesting He did not say the same that He said in Revelations.

Revelation 22:16-18 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Sounds like Christ is pretty much in control of the Words of this book, even the Holy Spirit says come and even the bride. I will not trust in man but I will trust completely in the Holy Spirit to lead me into all truth. In testing all things to see that they are truth is our responsibility and the Holy Spirit will not lie to us when we ask for it. He will show us truth and keep us from untruth, That is the Holy Spirit's direct commission from the Father and Christ, The Holy Spirit being God Himself will not give us a rock when we ask for bread.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2005/12/18 23:00Profile









 Re:

Gro_frog said:

"Now, I'm not a Bible Scholar, but if you have a question, I really urge you to listen to Chuck Smith's sermon (webpage posted on a below post). I've learned a lot, as he clarifies a lot of the "haze" on this battlefield."

And what Bible does Chuck Smith, founder of Calvary Chapel, rely on? The King James, and the King James only!

God bless,

Stever

 2005/12/19 1:17





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