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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re: The deception of man's controlling doctrines

Sister Diane wrote:

Quote:
It is also an evil to promote a God (god) who loves only conditionally. This leads people to bondage to works, insecurity, neurosis, etc. This keeps all the psychiatrists in business. It leaves victims easily persuaded through guilt. And it keeps countless from every trusting in God’s atonement (which is sufficient!). Thus, it is also leads people to hell.



Is this a conditional statement?

Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Rom. 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

2Pet. 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

Rev. 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

Rev. 2:11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’

Rev. 2:17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” ’

Rev. 2:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

Rev. 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rev. 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

Rev. 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Eph. 4:20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.



We are given Eternal Life, yet we ourselves are given the choice to obey or disobey. This has been established since the first man Adam.


Isaiah 35:

8 A highway shall be there, and a road,
And it shall be called the Highway of Holiness.
The unclean shall not pass over it,
But it shall be for others.
Whoever walks the road, although a fool,
Shall not go astray.

OSAS is rooted in the path we choose to walk. Christ is faithful He cannot deny Himself.

2Tim. 2:12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/29 16:00Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4526


 Re: The deception of man's controlling doctrines

Hi roadsign...

Quote:
After some thinking, I have come to believe that there are two very dangerous deceptions: 1. That OSAS is true, and 2. that OSAS is false.

That is a very interesting post! I've always believed the following:

[b]1. You are a believer when you totally place your faith in Christ.[/b]
"[i]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved[/i]" (Romans 10:13).

[b]2. Your good works do not save you, and cannot "keep you saved."[/b]
"[i]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast[/i]" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

[b]3. But faith without works is [u]dead[/u].[/b]
"[i]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone[/i]" (James 2:17).

[b]4. God is long-suffering -- not willing that anyone should perish. When we fall, His Spirit immediately draws us back unto himself -- toward true repentance.[/b]
"[i]And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance[/i]?" (Romans 2:3-4).

[b]5. Satan still works to "tempt" believers to walk away from their faith.[/b]
"[i]Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry[/i]" (I Corinthians 10:12-14).

[b]6. Some believers can and [u]do[/u] actually depart from the faith as a result of temptations or trials.[/b]
"[i]For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia[/i]" (II Timothy 4:10).

"[i]And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? The sower soweth the word. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred[/i]" (Mark 4:13-20).

[b]7. A person continually [i][u]living[/u] in perpetual sin[/i] is [u]not[/u] saved -- no matter what "experience" they had with Christ (or claim to have had with Christ) in the past.[/b]
"[i]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace[/i]? (Hebrews 10:26-29).

[b]8. Continual sin, without repentance, is equal to a person "departing" (or "walking away" from) the faith.[/b]
"[i]And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live[/i]" (Romans 8:10-13).

[b]9. True salvation is not obtained until we [i]overcome[/i] -- and are faithful until the end. [i]In other words, you are not ultimately saved until you have breathed your last breath[/i]. Currently, we are "saved" because we have left our life headed for destruction. If we return to that life, we are once again headed for destruction. In the end, the only ones who are ultimately saved are those who remained on the "[i]narrow road[/i]."[/b]
"[i]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them[/i]" (Matthew 7:13-20).

"[i]Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death[/i]" (Revelation 2:10-11).

"[i] Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son[/i]" (II John 1:8-9).

:-)


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Christopher

 2005/11/29 17:13Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
Is this a conditional statement?


I'm not sure what you mean by this question. So can you help me out.

Another thought:
A sharp knife is dangerous in the hands of a blind man. So also, the sharp-edged sword of the Word is dangerous in a the hands of a blind man, that is, one who is spiritually blind. They have a tendency to bash people on the head the Bible, and cause damage.

There is no good answer apart from the Spirit. The word of God must be revealed by the Spirit. Any other way, and we just can't get it right.

Thank you for all the references, Chris. We need them all. I think you bring out some points we should consider:

Quote:
you are not ultimately saved until you have breathed your last breath.



I teach piano. A lot of students start out eagerly. They work hard. But somewhere along the way they abandon it. They may be very talented, but they don't want to stick with the costly process of discipline, listening to authority, sacrifice etc etc. On the other hand, some students, seem hopeless at first, and I wish they would quit. But they end up shining.

So, who are real musicians in the end?
Diane


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Diane

 2005/11/29 17:27Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
That is our problem we are looking for ways to be better Christians, when He has already accomplished it by His own Seed that is birthed in us. We must become less every day and He must become more then we will be strong in the Church by the Power of His strength. Give up and let God do the work of His Son in us. Not me but Him. Amen



Amen Phillip and Amen

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/29 18:22Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
It has been said that Luther did not believe that the book of James should be in the bible. It seems to me that Luther's opinion was because the group of verses below.



I believe Martin Luther had more insite than many are willing to admit. The record of scrpture is that "those sent from James" were always causing trouble and always seeking to bring the Gentile believers under the bondage of the Mosaic Law. It was they that compelled Peter to be a hipocrit and cease to eat with the Gentiles. A situation of which Paul rebuked Peter to his face because he was compromising the truth of the Gospel.

If you study James you see he has a great appreciation for the Law but very little to say concerning Christ. When Paul came to Jeruselem James boasted and said to him, "see how many thousands are zelouse for the Law". He even compelled Paul to take the Vow, to shave his head and to offer sacrafices, But thank God in HIs Soverign arrangement, Paul was not allowed to continue but was arrested and brought out of that situation.

James is a good book. It is a mixture of the Old covenant rightousness and godlyness and the New Testament. It is akin to proverbs in it's content but as to its Christology and New Testament revelation of Christ and the Church and "Christ in you, the Hope of Glory" is is very defecient and lacking.


Graftedbranch

 2005/11/29 18:29Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I believe Martin Luther had more insite than many are willing to admit. The record of scrpture is that "those sent from James" were always causing trouble and always seeking to bring the Gentile believers under the bondage of the Mosaic Law

It seems you are following the line set down by such as J N Darby who created a canon within a canon on the basis of his dispensationalism. This kind of dispensationalism, also taught by E W Bullinger results in a canon in which Paul is the 'greatest' exponent of the true gospel while the other apostles and the church at Jerusalem failed in their mission. By this criteria John and Paul are the ultimate in spiritual truth. Is this your view?

And BTW they were not 'sent from James'; they 'came from James'. “For before that [u]certain came from James[/u], he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.” (Gal. 2:12, KJVS) The former indicates that they were commissioned by James; the latter that they were associated with James.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/11/29 18:46Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
The former indicates that they were commissioned by James; the latter that they were associated with James.



I was being more general and not so specific. But the influence of James is without question implied.

Paul in Colossians 1:25-27 says:

"Of which I became a minister according to the stewardship of God, which was given to me for you, to complete the Word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations but now has been manifested to His saints, To whom God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of Glory".

I am not familiar with Darby's view or position. But it is without question that in Paul's epistles is the highest revelation of Christ and the Church. And in James we find very little of this "high revelation" but rather practical godlyness in a very "old testament" sense which is good but very insufficient.

And it is evident in my experience with those who are legalistic and works oriented, that James is the book they always quote. They ignore Galatians, Romans, Ephesians, and everything else and build their whole doctrine and religion on the book of James. You can quote passage after passage from Galatians or Romans but they have one verse, "faith without works is dead" and "a man is justified by faith together with his works."

I simply suggest that there was a distinct transition period between the Old Covenent and the New and the complete revelation of the New Testament took time. The book of James is the earliest epistle in the New Testament. It was the first. And the Apostle Paul was the one who in the most accute way "completed the Word of God" which is the revelation of the Mystery which is.... Christ in you, the hope of Glory.

James does not mention this. He is not devoid of light or of Christ, He speaks of the Spirit, but his Light was not as rich or as deep or as complete as that of the Apostle Paul, John, or even Peter.

The Gospel of John and the Epistls of John were written in the AD 70s. which is late in the New Testament line (James I believe is AD 50). And in John's writings we also find the depth and emphasis on Christ as our indwelliing Life, the felloswhip of the Divine Life and his gospel is the highest in terms of the Revelation of Christ as our Life.

Graftedbranch





 2005/11/29 19:51Profile
npautsky
Member



Joined: 2003/9/10
Posts: 82
Texas

 Re:

Hello Graftedbranch

Quote:
I believe Martin Luther had more insite than many are willing to admit. The record of scrpture is that "those sent from James" were always causing trouble and always seeking to bring the Gentile believers under the bondage of the Mosaic Law. It was they that compelled Peter to be a hipocrit and cease to eat with the Gentiles. A situation of which Paul rebuked Peter to his face because he was compromising the truth of the Gospel. If you study James you see he has a great appreciation for the Law but very little to say concerning Christ. When Paul came to Jeruselem James boasted and said to him, "see how many thousands are zelouse for the Law". He even compelled Paul to take the Vow, to shave his head and to offer sacrafices, But thank God in HIs Soverign arrangement, Paul was not allowed to continue but was arrested and brought out of that situation.James is a good book. It is a mixture of the Old covenant rightousness and godlyness and the New Testament. It is akin to proverbs in it's content but as to its Christology and New Testament revelation of Christ and the Church and "Christ in you, the Hope of Glory" is is very defecient and lacking.



I just cannot believe that somebody could actually say this, this is garbage. There is a time for everything and now is the time to call this the poison that it is.

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar...
Romans 3:4


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Noel Pautsky

 2005/11/29 20:00Profile
GaryE
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Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:


Dear Graftedbranch,

Please don't think that I trying to disbarge Martin Luther. He is one of my favorite people to read about and in many ways was a man that walked very close to the Lord. Here I stand.

Luther's idea was wrong about the book of James and so is yours if you try to minimize a book that is inspired by the Holy Spirit so that you can make the rest of the scriptures fit what you want to believe.

In Christ,
GaryE


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Gary Eckenroth

 2005/11/29 20:40Profile
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3311
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 Re:

Wow 98 Posts and the only one I have read was the last post man are we Christians or Politicians hard to tell :-(
By the way has anyone figured out if Once Saved Always Saved. :-)


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Bill

 2005/11/29 21:47Profile





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