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jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

But are your works ever good enough? Maybe you should have tried a little harder yesterday, were you perfect today? Have you overcome today? Will you tomorrow?

You have to compare yourself not to others but to God, how do your works measure up in that light?

 2005/11/28 15:36Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Quote:
But are your works ever good enough? Maybe you should have tried a little harder yesterday, were you perfect today? Have you overcome today? Will you tomorrow?



The seal of the Holy Spirit means that He speaks. All the examples given in Scripture of faithful men and women require that God speaks His promises to them. How else would we know the good works that He has for us? Nothing good comes from the carnal mind for it will never please God. Only by the Spirit will one know what he is to do next. Those who will follow will also know a Paul knows. The Spirit will persuade you. He will comfort you.

Romans 8:

38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Was it Scripture or the Holy Spirit that persuaded Paul? Faith is rooted in God not man. Faith comes from hearing.

It is not are my works ever good enough? Rather it is Yes Lord, I will do what you have commanded me to do today.

16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Does His Spirit bear witness to you? Are you suffering with Him?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/28 15:55Profile
npautsky
Member



Joined: 2003/9/10
Posts: 82
Texas

 Re: Once Saved Always Saved

Once saved always saved is a lie. The scriptures in no way teach OSAS. This is very serious, people will die and go to hell because of this false doctrine. I promise you no one will die and go to hell because they believed that they had better have oil in their lamp or that that they had better seek the Lord and ask him to help them to be holy, because without holiness no man shall see the Lord, or that they must sell all that they have (forsake all worldly affections contrary to the doctrine of Christ) to have the pearl of great price, for the Lord has commanded all of these things, yet thousands upon thousands will choose to live a lukewarm life for Christ and be damned forever because of this false doctrine of Once Save Always Saved.

According to the OSAS way of thinking Peter never should have started to sink after the Lord commanded him to come to him walking on the water. You would think that the water should have become as solid as concrete for Peter after Christ issued his command "Come", after all the Lord himself had spoken the word and who can stand against him? But what happened? Peter had professed Jesus to be the Christ beforehand but did that stop him from sinking? No, a living and active faith was necessary on Peter's part to take hold of the Lord's command to walk on the water. When he started to doubt he started to sink. The same goes for salvation from sin, yes the Lord has issued the command to us to come and be saved but there still lies something on our part, just as Peter had to believe God and get out of the boat, we must also have a living and active faith that God will help us to rise above our sins if we expect to walk in the salvation of the Lord. As you probably are already aware, you and I rising above our sin is about as likely as you or I walking on the water without the miracle power of Jesus at work in our lives.

Just as the sea challenged Peter's faith, the flesh and the devil will challenge our own faith that the Lord can really deliver what he has promised. Do you not see every evil thing that would be part of your life as a challenge to the veracity of the Gospel? Jesus said that he came that we should know the truth and the truth would make us free. Doesn't any bondage in our lives challenge the very truth of this statement? Doesn't that thing that mocks Jesus' words absolutely need to be overcome by the power of God if there is going to be any kind of continuity to our faith?

God bless you all,

And may we all lay hold of the promise of being partakers of the divine nature through faith in Jesus Christ.


_________________
Noel Pautsky

 2005/11/28 17:36Profile
Warrior4Jah
Member



Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re: Importance of this question?

How can we tell the difference of a 'backslidden christian' living in sin or a 'never reborn christian' living in sin? If you believe in OSAS, the backslidden christian would be saved eventually anyhow or he/she would never be reborn in the first place. Wouldn't you preach/tell about sin and repentance because you don't know in which category he/she falls?

If you don't believe in OSAS you see both persons in danger of hell. Either way you will be preaching sin and repentance!

How important is this to agree with OSAS or not?
As we cannot truly look into hearts of men, don't we need to share the gospel to them and tell them to repent (warn them) and call them to submit their lives to our Lord Jesus Christ?
If a person is messing around with God he/she won't tell that he/she already submit to God in the past. He/she will either refuse to see his/her error towards God or repent.

What if a christian came to you and asked if he was in danger of hell.
He tells you that he fornicates and keeps messing around with women.
Can you then say, [i]"brother you are saved because you chose for Christ?"[/i]

How can someone, if you believe in OSAS or not say not to him: [i]"You are in danger of hell"[/i]
Neither someone who believes in OSAS or not would not warn him.

Perhaps OSAS is a weird question. Wheren't people in the days of the New Testament persecuted often? Or seen as outcasts?
You wouldn't dare to just put the label 'christian' on yourself unless you really are one.
It does not benefit you at all if you don't see the treasure hidden in the field.

Perhaps its more better to ask the question:
[i]"Is your life bringing forth fruits that meet for repentance?"[/i]

Isn't a holy life the result of following and knowing God? How then would a person be different or changed if this was not the case in a 'converted' person?

I need to quit now as I keep making my post longer.. :-( (even a christian needs sleep!)
Sorry for not quoting any scripture, but I'm working on that regarding OSAS or ISAS or whatever term.


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Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/11/28 17:48Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
How can we tell the difference of a 'backslidden christian' living in sin or a 'never reborn christian' living in sin?



We don't have to tell the difference. We preach Christ crucified. If a person is regenerated, He is born of God and has the Eternal Life of God in his regenerated spirit. He is justified and reconciled to God.

What is salvation based in? Our works? Our holiness? our personal rightousness? If this is so then Christ died in vain.

What does it mean to be justified? What does it mean to have your sins forgiven and atoned for on the Cross? What does it mean to be in Christ? To be born agian of the Spirit? To be a Child of God with the Life of God?

Some it would seem give no attention to these things but rather concentrate on performance, works and our personal rightousness. Where is Christ in all this?

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/29 0:18Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4526


 Re:

Hi Graftedbranch...

Perhaps the simplest thing to say is:
"[i]If you are living in sin, then you are [u]not[/u] saved[/i]."

Quote:
[b]Hebrews 10:26-31[/b]

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[i]Remember...Revelation chapter 2 and 3 are directed to the Church[/i]!



:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2005/11/29 0:39Profile
jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

Rookie,

So what do you do when the Spirit isn't bearing witness to you on a given day? Or are you a very unique christian that walks in the Spirit 24/7?

If you are, I truly would like to meet you and shake your hand.

So you listen to the Lord perfectly and do all He commands perfectly?

If you honestly believe that, I think you have a very low view of God and a very high view of yourself. Which is in my opinion, an affliction of all arminians.

This all still goes back to what the reformation was about, and that is a man is justified by faith in the finished work of Christ and nothing else!

I know lots of mormons that are exceeding "good" people, that believe their works do contribute to their standing before God, and they also claim to have the witness of the "spirit". Did you know that?

I'm sorry, but if you believe that your good behavior in any way maintains your relationship to Him, then essentially you are no different than a Roman Catholic, no matter what else you may believe.

 2005/11/29 5:31Profile
Warrior4Jah
Member



Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re:

Quote:

We don't have to tell the difference. We preach Christ crucified.



It's good that we don't have to, because I cannot see how we could ever tell the difference.
I'm not responding because I disagree but this helps me to think about it.

Quote:

If a person is regenerated, He is born of God and has the Eternal Life of God in his regenerated spirit. He is justified and reconciled to God.
What is salvation based in? Our works? Our holiness? our personal righteousness? If this is so then Christ died in vain.

What does it mean to be justified? What does it mean to have your sins forgiven and atoned for on the Cross? What does it mean to be in Christ? To be born again of the Spirit? To be a Child of God with the Life of God?



Our salvation is in Jesus. If He tells that you can't be a disciple if you don't pick up your cross and go after Him or that many won't enter in the straight gate and road to life you'd better listen.

It is not out of ourselves that we can just follow a set of rules which would justify us and get ourselves in heaven. That indeed would take away the sense for all the suffering the Lord took upon Him, His death and resurrection. Basically we would call God a liar and make his Love perverted.

But doesn't Jesus warn for the things that prevent people to get to Him? That would mean that a lot of people are not even regenerated to begin with.
that would explain the 'straight is the road..' verse.

Won't you start to lead a holy life after being regenerated?
Seems foolish to state that you must lead a holy life in order to be saved. Since what makes our life holy? Not the things we do. That would raise the question: [i]“when is your life holy enough?”[/i] It never is if that’s the basis of our salvation. But we can say that the result of being regenerated is that a person starts to live a holy life. Just like that ‘works’ is the natural result out of faith so is a holy life out of regeneration, but both not our salvation which only lies in Christ.

Quote:

Some it would seem give no attention to these things but rather concentrate on performance, works and our personal rightousness. Where is Christ in all this?



Isn't the Judgement Seat of Christ in heaven?
That would mean that only saved people will be there to give account to how well they glorified Christ in their lives. Our works will be tested by fire! It is not that Christ would keep a list of minimum amount of required works to let us enter heaven. We will if we pretty much messed up shrink away in shame more often (and receive a smaller reward and lower position as these works on earth we did through faith are an indication for how much responsibility God can give us in eternity).

[b]1Co 3:13-15[/b]
[i](13) each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is.
(14) If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire.[/i]

Other people having denied Christ are to be judged by the White Throne Judgement and have no Saviour as they denied Him.

Could the question of OSAS be sufficiently answered to state that people who fall away where never regenerated?
It would make more sense to state that the large amount of people who fall away were not regenerated at all instead of having been regenerated and dropped out.

[b]2Co 13:5[/b]
[i](5) examine [b]yourselves[/b], whether [b]you are in the faith[/b], prove your [b]own selves[/b]. Do you not know your own selves, [b]that Jesus Christ[/b] is [b]in[/b] you, [b]unless you are reprobates[/b]?[/i]

Not being 'in the faith' would equal to not having Christ in you, meaning not being regenerated.
There is no doubt that a ‘reprobate’ is not saved.
Even when you are called a Christian by everyone.

Well if you see flaws in my thoughts (theology?) feel free to correct them! Thank you for replying anyhow. :-)


_________________
Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/11/29 7:40Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother jimbob wrote:

Quote:
So what do you do when the Spirit isn't bearing witness to you on a given day? Or are you a very unique christian that walks in the Spirit 24/7?



Be still and know that I am the Lord. We are to feed daily on the Holy Scriptures.

Matthew 6:

11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.

This points to the work we should be about. Is not God faithful to those who draw near?

Believe me brother there are things that the Lord has placed before me and I have yet not submitted. One is preachin on Bruin Walk more than I do.

To me when one preaches Calvin or Arminian one is caught in the bondage of man's doctrine. Paul writes of this to the Corinthian church. 1 Corinthians 3:

3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

1Cor. 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

To me when I hear of this striving of men I know from whense it came, I too was once in bondage to doctrines which stammer and are only able to heal superficially.

It is Law of the Spirit of Christ that gives the increase.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/29 11:05Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Will anyone testify of the Law of the Spirit of Christ? Will anyone speak about what this law has freed them from?

There is a difference between those who hear and those who imagine.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/29 11:09Profile





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