| Re: OSAS? What does "saved" mean?|
. It is a fear of mine that I would one day sacrifice the Truth of God (Christ, John 14:6) for a doctrine that may make sense to me but was never revealed. Amen?
I wonder how much error still resides in the recesses of our minds - I suspect far more then we could imagine. We tend to squeeze spiritual truths into the confines of our own subjective reality - like pouring new wine into old wineskin. I praise God, that he disciplines his own, and constantly adjusts our thinking, transforming it to the mind of Christ. IN the process, we might look very unrefined, very flawed, maybe even very unsaved. We may fail miserably, like so many Bible characters whom God put to the test.
I think it is impossible to even share meaningful on this topic OSAS when our very foundational understanding of salvation varies. In my observation it seems that many of the OSAS supporters have a very shallow view of Salvation - or rather a far too broad definition - far too inclusive. No wonder we need to keep up the debate, and the OSAS keeps getting challenged.
And it is good to examine our own lives.
Thank you for bringing this up.
| 2005/11/21 13:01||Profile|
I agree with this, except instead of saying "Revelation in scriptures" I would like to change it to "Revelation OF scriptures" (as in, by the Holy Spirit).
We need both. We need the objective revelation in the Scritpures and we need the revelation of the Scritpures to us subjectively.
The One is the "Faith once for all delivered to the Saints" and the other is our subjective appreciation of it, entering into the reality of the Truths in Scripture.
The Spirit within us brings us into the reality of those objective truths in the Bible. As the Lord said in JOhn 14 IN that Day (when the Spirit comes) you shall know that I am in My Father and you are in Me and I am in you...."
| 2005/11/21 13:24||Profile|
| drawing the dividing line|
We need the objective revelation in the Scritpures and we need the revelation of the Scritpures to us subjectively.
I have come to your post three times, just to think about it. I believe that these words are like a sharp-edged sword, distinguishing those who belong to Christ and those who do not.
This morning I received the following meditation from Chip Brogden, which adds the needed "punch" to your words, Graftedbranch.
by Chip Brogden:
"There is a difference between salvation and a Savior; between deliverance and a Deliverer; between healing and a Healer; between redemption and a Redeemer. The first is a thing, the second is a Person. This may sound self-evident and elementary, but before God the difference is vast, and in actual experience the difference is incalculable.
If we are not clear on the matter of His Son we will find the Christian life very difficult, if not impossible, to live. I have the thing because I have Him; having Him, I do not need to search for the thing anymore. What do you have? An experience? A word? A doctrine? A belief? Or a Man? This is the difference between a living Christianity and a dead religion."
Taken from this article:
[url=http://www.watchman.net/articles/gift.html]The Gift of Christ[/url]
| 2005/11/26 9:41||Profile|
| Can't Romans 8 and 11 be Reconciled?|
I appreciate your desire to seek the truth concerning the matter, even withholding from "stretching" the Word to fit a slant; perhaps, that is what many of us do without a second thought. I hope that what I am about to say doesn't do that (and I know the people on here to be quite diligent and faithful to correct errors in the fold).
Alright, so Romans 8 claims: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Well, wherein is Christ's love, but that " But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) Well, doesn't that mean God loves sinners? And so, in loving sinners, God even loves them that are in Hell--even Hitler, Stalin, Kantz, Freud, and others who stood so harshly against His Word.
Wouldn't the most painful torment be the clarity in which all sinners must view the loss of the Great Pearl (Christ's love and sacrifice)? That which was supposed to bring life (Christ's resurrection) is now become Satan's greatest flaunt and derision in the face of the condemned. Yet, God still even loves Lucifer, His "Seal of Perfection" (Eze. 28)!
Well, Romans 11 only confirms this, since it says, "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Rom. 11:22) See, to be grafted into God's vine (Christ), the nutrients and characteristics of the vine will flow into the branches, and as long as the vine is connected to the branch more and more of its life will flow into the branch. Therefore, a branch that is not filling up with this life is broken, disconnected, and in need of reattachment or destruction. It is why Christ spoke the parable of the planter who begged: "Lord, give me another year, that I might fertilize the plant; and if it not grow then cut it down: but if it grow, then may it be let be".
OSAS only allows people to be complacent, leaving off the purifying that Christ so longs in His people; America thus evidences much of that.
| 2005/11/26 10:16||Profile|
| Re: Can't Romans 8 and 11 be Reconciled?|
That is a pretty good illustration, but I was referring to the part earlier in Romans 8 (mainly v.28 until it gets to the part you quoted). The point I was making was that there are scriptures that seem to argue for both sides, within the same epistle! Obviously there must be a balance here, Paul knew what he meant, I just wish I did. I mostly lean towards your side of the argument, but there are still some scriptures that I see that seem to need to be stretched in order to reject OSAS altogether. The reason I am not posting them is because I do not really want a long list of explanations from people on both sides (i have heard most), I just want God to reveal it in His timing.
One major problem that I see is that quite often, one side will see their side in scripture, then see the other side and say "Well, Paul said this so he couldnt possibly have meant [i]that[/i], it must mean something else!" But the other side does the same. So both sides have their very clear scriptures, and then they have a whole list of explanations for the ones that do not fit perfectly.
As Keith Daniel once said... "Am I a calvinist? Am I an Arminian? Oh my! I dont know! They are both in the scriptures!"
| 2005/11/26 10:58||Profile|
If my mother that conceived in her womb the seed of my father had gotten an abortion, would I still exist? If it takes a soul to give life by the breath of God, then conception is not possible with out that life in womb being breathed into existence by God. You say, God only needed to breath the breath of Life once into Adam and the process carries on to all offspring. We were conceived in sin from our mother's womb. We did not have a choice, we were of our father the devil. Who made the choice to conceive me, was it my mother and father, or was it my spirit which I received from Adam who chose Satan as our spirit father?
All these questions have only one explanation, God is in control of all. He created all and is most able to deal with all creation, all sin, all life and bring into His Will anything that is necessary to accomplish it for His own pleasure.
God has never given an abortion to any of His offspring. If we are born again of Spirit by Christ Jesus the Incorruptable Seed of the Father being placed in us, we are then offspring of the Father, and nothing, NOTHING can separate us from the Love of God. Once born of the Father always born of the Father. I believe that is why God allows abortion to show us how impossible it is for the Born again of Spirit and Water (the Word) to loose this New Life of Christ in is the hope of Glory. Man in his mind and body and soul and the spirit of Satan, his father can abort life, because that is Satan's purpose from the beginning to destroy the creation of God and show his power over God.
God cannot destroy created life or birthed life of Himself or none would be saved, there would be no Hell, to contain those that don't believe forever in separation from the God that is the creator of all life, created or Spiritually Birthed by Himself.
If we are saved by God, How can we become unsaved by aborting the Seed of the Father? Man can only abort his own flesh seed, he cannot abort the Spiritual life Seed of Christ, only the Father could do this, and He will not abort His own birthed and only begotten Son or any son's that have been birthed by the Seed of Christ that is in all that believe.
Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Christ is our Root.
Birthed by Christ in me, never to be aborted: Phillip
| 2005/11/26 15:05||Profile|
| Re: Once Saved Always Saved|
Hi there... This is my first post, so forgive me if it doesn't come through quite right...!
I have been thinking a lot about this subject over the last few months - mainly because a friend has recently, (openly!) turned his back on God and His word. And I've had a few questions come to mind...
>John 3:16 (NIV) - For God so Loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
- I've considered this passage (and the many others like it) and wondered what the true definition of the word 'believe' is (I'm of the opinion that the first step in any argument is to decide on word definitions)... Does this word imply an 'act' or a 'state of being'? In other words, do you have to 'believe once' and be saved or 'believe continually' (or 'to the end') and be saved
>Ephesians 2:8,9 (NIV) - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.
- This one can be quite confusing for me, and I don't know whether its a translation issue or what...
- "and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"
1. Does this refer to the 'faith' as well as the 'grace'...? In which case we play absolutely no part (including faith... and thus belief)...
2. Or does this refer only to the 'grace'... In which case our part is faith (belief), and thus we only receive the grace through the faith...
- At this point we must again ask... an 'act' of faith or a 'state of being' in faith...?
- "not by works, so that no one can boast."...
Once again... does this refer to the 'faith' and the 'grace', or just the 'grace'...?
The grace - Our salvation cannot be boasted about at any time from any perspective... Since it was Jesus who died for all sin and rose from eternal death, we have no part at all in the act of saving from sin
We cannot boast that anything we did took away our sin
And nothing we do can give us eternal life
These things were, are and always will be possible only for God.
The faith - Can we really boast about this
? Can faith in Christ save us
? I say no
It is not the faith in Christ that brings salvation, but the Christ in the faith who brings salvation
Thus faith is nothing to boast about in terms of salvation
But then again
To me the scriptures are full - on the surface - of seeming contradictions about these things
There are so many aspects that need to be considered - the language; word definitions; context; literality or non-literality; etc
All I can say for certain is this
The Bible is the Word of the Only Living God
He uses it to teach us about Himself and about ourselves
And if we seek Him we will find Him, if we seek Him with all our hearts
| 2005/11/26 19:09||Profile|
Remember when you see someone "fall away" from God, that Peter denied the Lord publicly with cursing and swearing, and yet was restored. And when he was restored it was with gentleness and grace, not accusations and a "how could you?" attitude.
| 2005/11/26 20:38||Profile|
| Re: Unbelief, what is it?|
There are so many aspects that need to be considered - the language; word definitions; context; literality or non-literality; etc
There is also the problem of our own mindsets. We filter everything through a grid of our life-views, our cultural setting, our religious background. I think that is one reason why we cant figure this out. The other reason is that spiritual truth is discerned spiritually, not by natural thinking. So, we will never figure out Gods truths if we are trying to fit it into our own minds.
I find it interesting that when people talk about those who fall away they never bring up Galatians all those who started out in faith, but soon abandoned the faith by going back to trust in the law. These were the dedicated ones who LOOKED the most SAVED ! They were not the ones who occasionally slipped and took a drink, or had an affair.
I have seen many who got saved (?), and then quickly become bewitched, as Galatans would put it. They soon lived out their lives trusting in their own flesh and their observance of law. They are the ones whom we normally do not regard to as falling away but rather as those who are persevering!!! They are the model Christians, dedicated, clean, well behaved. They read the Bible and pray, etc
.. Think about that! Isnt there a significant perversion of truth in the way we view perseverance, salvation, belief, obedience, etc?
Are not the majority of Christians in the above camp like the Galatians? That would include those debating OSAS. How will they ever see truth as long as they are not able to discern the Spirit?
A thought in answer to an earlier question about faith: The book of Hebrews uses Israels unbelief to help us understand what it means to fall away. They, as a nation, refused to TRUST. They refused to enter Gods rest. They preferred to trust in themselves. And the Israelites, being typical, believed like everyone around them. So as a nation they fell away, in spite of the blessings, the glory cloud, the presence of the Spirit, the word, etc etc. .
However, there were individuals who remained faithful, just as in the church in Sardis: "Yet, you have a few in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes." Rev. 3:4
I think that Hebrews speaks about people groups (which can fall away altogether. Likewise denominations (that started by the power of the Spirit) drift away. It takes usually one or two generations to drift.
Now, regarding individuals: I ask, is not the refusal to trust in the sufficiency of Gods atonement the sin that Hebrews warns about? It would seem that to refuse to believe OSAS is a sin because it is an indication of unbelief. If we dont trust in Gods salvation even to all eternity, then we are living in unbelief. And look at all the problems caused by unbelief. (hypocrisy, dead churches, messed up lives, compromise with the world, etc)
PS, I believe that trusting in Gods salvation is not the same as trusting in our own opinion about our salvation.
| 2005/11/26 21:08||Profile|
| Re: Once Saved Always Saved|
I believe this article speaks to an underlying problem nowadays with any discussion along this line, namely the confusing of legitimate works commanded by our Lord with illegitimate works not born out of faith in Christ but out of obedience to the old Jewish faith or even perhaps the false Catholic faith or anything else other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I personally don't know of one soul other than myself that would agree with this article. If this article is true then it would appear that the Gospel has been hijacked by 16th-18th century protestant intellectuals and branded with their own version of hyper-faith which more and more seems to be the case to me. There is a huge difference between crawling up steps on your knees, and scripturally seeking to be holy and pure as commanded by the Lord and his Apostles. Maybe the reformers went a little overboard on the Justification by Faith side of things in reaction to the false doctrines of works then being taught by the Catholics.
[url=www.ccel.org/l/law/justific/just01.htm]Justification by Faith and Works by William Law (Published 1760)[/url]
| 2005/11/27 0:33||Profile|