SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved Always Saved

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 Next Page )
PosterThread
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Assurance

Think Diane brought forth the similar line of thought I was attempting to draw attention to in regards to a "tenuous 'assurance'":

Quote:
The problem is that many have a faith that is not based on truth. So in the end they will [b]say[/b], “Lord, Lord…. (based on their faith)” and end up being rejected by Christ. There will be a lot of people in hell who trusted in OSAS, and also believed the opposite.



Key word there; "[b]say[/b]" and as it follows...
"Did we not....?" Therefore justifying themselves or at least foolishly attempting to do so. Would any of us with a right understanding of who we are even regenerated, have this kind of audacity to present to the Lord 'proofs'?

What perhaps I would be emphasizing is that which scripture emphasizes as well. That there is an awful lot about overcoming, enduring, checking oneself and so forth. It seems telling that there is so much attention paid to this in the first place, could it be because instead of presenting the truths, the hard things of this walk, the sacrifice of self, of bearing ones cross, of suffering, of being misunderstood and slighted, for some truly persecuted and put to death for these same truths... That this has become so underrated that a propping up must be done in it's place? "You're O.K. brother, don't trouble yourself with all these things, OSAS you know".

It just seems to launch forth on the wrong footing. Those who know that they are saved are not going to be pinning away at it or need to be 'assured' all the time, that's what I meant by a 'tenuous' assurance and how it becomes secondary. You will endure, you will carry on, you will continue in the faith, IF you keep doing those things that are prompting you onward. It just seems that a lot of this is perhaps putting a period at the beginning of the sentence, where God has put a series of commas to pause and consider, not to send one into fits of paranoia.
It's not that we believe, but that we go on believing.

The biggest problem I see with this whole thing is like a lot of other extrapolations, when did this whole thing become such an issue? Would be curious to see if it was really as prevalent throughout Christian history as it is in our day.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/12/3 14:23Profile









 Re: OSAS - assurance

Quote:
It's not that we believe, but that we go on believing.

That's all there is to it! ;-)

 2005/12/3 14:31
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
It seems telling that there is so much attention paid to this in the first place, could it be because instead of presenting the truths, the hard things of this walk, the sacrifice of self, of bearing ones cross, of suffering, of being misunderstood and slighted, for some truly persecuted and put to death for these same truths... That this has become so underrated that a propping up must be done in it's place? "You're O.K. brother, don't trouble yourself with all these things, OSAS you know".



Amen Mike,

I think you hit a key point, Genuine conversions are not being produced because the cross is not preached. If "fire insurance" is all that is being offered there is probably no insurance company behind it backing it up. The Spirit does not bear witness to "fire insurance" but to Christ as the crucified and risen Lord.

So we have many churches filled with unregenerated people who's only claim to religion is "I prayed a prayer" and OSAS.

But might it not be that OSAS is like an oil light in your car which if it comes on, you think there must be something wrong with the light and don't deal with the lack of oil? Or rather like turning off the light and saying, "see, the car if fine?"

It is a good and right thing applied to the wrong persons. The docrine may be right but the persons are wrong. If we try to assure a lost man based on some act he performed, that is not directing him to Christ. Our assurance is not in an act we performed whether a prayer, or "walking an aisle".

Our assurance is based in the Word of God, the Person of Christ and the witness of the Spirit in our spirit. And the evidence is the friut of a New Life in the person which was not there before. A Life that loves Christ, is hungry for the Word, conscious of sin, and one that produces a desire to go on and follow the Lord.

The gospel is the crucified and resurrected Christ and repentance and faith in His Name, not eternal security (Though the promise of eternal Life is part of the gospel). Security is the result of the former, not the cause of it and to try to make those who are outside of Christ secure is to inoculate them against repentance and faith. In fact giving a scripture of assurance won't actually give assurance unless the Spirit is behind it and applying it and He won't do that if the person in their condition is not entitled to it.

Graftedbranch

"Long my imprisoned spirit lay fast bound in sin and nature's night. Thine eye diffused a quickening ray, behold, the dungon flamed with Light. My chains fell off. My heart was free. I rose, went forth, and followed Thee." - Chs Wesley



 2005/12/3 15:35Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: Just a note of experience

From experience, when we speak to others about Christ if we are in fellowship with the Lord and abiding in Him and looking to Him in our conversation, we can usually tell if a person has genuinly believed.

And if not, and we sense the Lord is convicting them, we can biblically encourage them to call on the Lord and assure them that, "Whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.

Sometimes but not always we are aware that there is a genuine "breakthrough". You just know it. But the next time we see this person usually confirms in us whether of not anything has taken place in them. You sense Life in them. They are different, and they are hungry for the Word and want to talk more of Christ. This is a good indication.

But if not, the Lord knows the heart and knows the condition, but we are not amiss in encouraging them to call on the Lord. And if we sense in our spirit they are saved and need assurance, we can co-operate with the Lord in bringing them to the appropriate scriptures to quell their doubts and fears and the accusations which the enemy always hits us whith when we are genuinly saved.

If we are lost he does not do this. He tries to give false assurance. But if we are really saved, He does the opposite to keep us from assurance so that we can't go on in faith and grow. A person who is struggeling with assurance is usually saved. An unbeliever usually does not care or is just self assured and wonders why others are all concerned about it. He doesn't see himself as that great a sinner and thinks he is just fine.

As in all things we need to be in our spirit, in vital contact with the Lord and sensitive to His leading in dealing with souls.

Our great need is ourselves to be constituted with Christ and abiding in Christ to be able to cooperate with Him in His work with others. IN any event, the Lord's work is always the same, to bring them to Christ, to regenerate them, to bring the into the fellowship of the body of Christ, to feed them and to grow them up in all things into Christ.

Graftedbranch



 2005/12/3 16:00Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: What's our job here?

Quote:
…hypocrites. Not the kind which tries to act like a Christian when we are not, but the Kind who is a Christian and is acting like he is not.


You have drawn a dividing line in the very place where scripture says we can’t. As Dan pointed out:
Quote:
Tares look like wheat – that is the problem.


I suspect, that since we can't easily distinguish the two, it is not our job to make a distinction (The Bible says we can cause a lot of damage trying to do so)

If the way we practice our Christianity - ie: shape our church life, talk about spiritual truths, or share our faith journey depends heavily on a need to make this distinction, then I think something is wrong with our entire system.

We will end up being bitterly disilusioned with people whom we trusted to be the ideal models of the faith. Or we will lack mercy towards those who fail, including ourselves.

We need to go back to scripture and learn from God how we are to live out our faith and our relationship with others.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2005/12/3 19:17Profile
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:

I've noticed that there are many OSAS people who think that people who don't believe in OSAS don't have any assurance. For some people this may be true but when I've been around people who say this I am quite puzzled why they think this. I believe a person can fall away yet I don't have a fear that this will happen to me. This may be different than what you have been taught if you are OSAS but it seems to me that most people who believe you can fall away aren't afraid that they will fall away themselves.

Graftedbranch, you seem to look at justification leading to sanctification and these being the same thing while I look at them as separate experiences. I think of justification as a baby Christian and Sanctification as an adult. To me one becomes sanctified by believing on the Lords work {his offering for us} and at the same time choosing to walk the walk. God's grace includes the ability to resist sin not just the taking away of past sin. In this I see man's choice and free will in that person living a sanctified life but not separate from God's enabling man to choose and live this separated life.

Also, when Jesus said whosoever comes after me must carry his own cross, I see this as a need to choose to do this. In the prayer that Jesus prayed preceding the cross Jesus said, "Father take this cup from me, never the less not my will but yours". To take up a cross is to surrender our will to God. This is a choice that we need to make and it is the choice Jesus made when he said not my will but yours.

When I hear scriptures like resist the devil, faith without works is dead, go and sin no more, go sell every thing you have and come and follow me etc. I hear God saying, just do it. The price has been paid to set me free so I am to just do it.

Another thing that has been asked me is when does a person become lost. OSAS people tend to think that someone who isn't OSAS thinks that the first time they fall into a sin they think they are lost. Maybe some do think that way but I doubt if very many do. If we are talking in my yard and you walk away I might call you to come back. You might ignore me and I might call you again and again. This may go on for awhile as you get further and further away. There is a point where you can't hear me anymore. The lost have resisted the Lord's pleadings to return to the point where they can no longer hear God pleading any longer. There are people who once believed and are so far from God that if you ask them about Jesus will tell you that there is nothing to the gospel. OSAS thinks they were never saved and were just professors only, I think many of these people were saved and are now lost.

Once, I met a man who had been a pastor for years that had backslidden. He had believed OSAS as a pastor. He was living at a mission in a city, was an alcoholic, and had divorced his wife and left his family behind. It was interesting to hear him tell me he no longer believed in OSAS. It is my opinion that this man was not lost but did need to return to the Lord. He knew there was a need for him to let Jesus back in his life by confessing and forsaking his sins.

In Christ,
GaryE


_________________
Gary Eckenroth

 2005/12/3 23:34Profile
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony... have you ever seen a sheep turn into a goat or wheat turn to tares? Do your children cease being your children when they fail? does not the father look for and then run after the prodigal son? did not Jesus come into the world to save it? is the blood of Jesusworthy to depend upon or would you rather trust in your ability to be holy or anything else you might need to be? jimp

 2005/12/4 4:31Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Sanctification or in its verb form, sanctify, literally means to set apart for special use or purpose, that is to make holy or sacred (compare Latin sanctus 'holy'). Therefore sanctification refers to the state or process of being set apart, i.e. made holy. Christ in us is the one that makes us Holy and God has made Him in us our sanctification and justification.

1Co 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus - Even the good which you possess is granted by God, for it is by and through him that Christ Jesus comes, and all the blessings of the Gospel dispensation.

Who of God is made unto us wisdom - As being the author of that evangelical wisdom which far excels the wisdom of the philosopher and the scribe, and even that legal constitution which is called the wisdom of the Jews, De 4:6.

And righteousness - Δικαιοσυνη , Justification, as procuring for us that remission of sins which the law could not give, Ga 2:21; 3:21.

And sanctification - As procuring for and working in us, not only an external and relative holiness, as was that of the Jews, but οσιοτητα της αληθειας , true and eternal holiness, Eph 4:24, wrought in us by the Holy Spirit.

And redemption - He is the author of redemption, not from the Egyptian bondage, or Babylonish captivity, but from the servitude of Satan, the dominion of sin and death, and from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God, or the redemption of the body, Ro 8:21, Ro 8:23. See Whitby.

The object of the apostle is to show that man of himself possesses no good, that whatever he has comes from God, and from God only through Christ. For the different acceptations of the word righteousness the reader may consult the note on Ro 1:17 (note), where the subject is considered in every point of view.

Justification: Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Ro 3:28
Therefore we conclude, etc. - Seeing these things cannot be denied, viz., that all have sinned: that all are guilty, that all are helpless: that none can deliver his own soul, and that God, in his endless mercy, has opened a new and living way to the holiest by the blood of Jesus, Heb 10:19, Heb 10:20, etc: therefore we, apostles and Christian teachers, conclude, λογιζομεθα , prove by fair, rational consequence, that a man - any man, is justified - has his sins blotted out, and is received into the Divine favor, by faith in Christ's blood, without the deeds of the law, which never could afford, either to Jew or Gentile, a ground for justification, because both have sinned against the law which God has given them, and, consequently, forfeited all right and title to the blessings which the obedient might claim.

Christ is our all and in All that we do. He is our good works by His Faith, our repentance is because He tells us by the Holy Spirit what to repent of, He is our forgiveness, He is our righteousness, He is our wisdom, He is our Sanctification, He is our Justification. Christ is our all in all, He is in whom we live and move and have our being.

IN Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2005/12/4 4:50Profile
npautsky
Member



Joined: 2003/9/10
Posts: 82
Texas

 Re: Finish the Course

Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Parable of the Sower

Jesus said, how shall you understand all parables if you don't understand this one.



The parable of the sower is about finishing the course in good standing with God. Part of the foundation it is laying for understanding the other parables is in its illustration of the need for a continued obedience to the word, following the Lord is not a one time act. If a Christian is to rightly understand his place and standing in the Kingdom of God he needs to understand what is taught in the parables. There is no lax attitude in any of them. It is all diligence, perseverance, and faithfulness repeated over and over throughout the different stories. The Lord uses the parable of the sower to teach how the word of God can bring fruit of salvation into our lives but also how the word can be treated lightly through allowing things like temptation, trouble, cares of this world, deceitfulness of riches, lust for other things and the pleasures of this life to stop the work of God in us.

The parable of the sower establishes conditions and most of the other parables do the same. Most all of the parables are illustrating the necessity of perseverance or else things that must be forsaken in order to be Jesus' disciple.

In the parable of the unforgiving servant, unforgivness must be forsaken.

In the parable of the pearl of great price, all that you have must be forsaken.

In the parable of the tower and also the king making war, we are warned to count the cost of being a Christian.

The parable of the man building his house on either sand or rock, again shows the necessity of obedience in order to expect salvation.

The Parable of the absent master speaks of faithfulness to the Lord, if the servant stops being a good servant and chooses to become a poor servant then destruction becomes his part.

The Parable of the wise and foolish virgins is yet more of the same warning to continue on. The virgins would have been in good standing according to this parable if they had been prepared. To be prepared in this parable just meant to have continued to live in a way that would please the Lord if he should have come back at any time.

The Parable of the talents again warns about being careless about our spiritual state. The servant was suppose to have been occupying himself with multiplying his masters money. You have to ask yourself what was he doing with all of his free time since he was no longer busy about his masters business? He was living for himself and not for his master. This is a good picture of a Christian walking in the flesh, knowing his duty to Christ to give the word of God free reign in his life but choosing to follow after other things.

These teachings are the backbone of the Gospel, they were left to Jesus to teach who has preeminence in all things. The intent of these parables is to demonstrate what it takes to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. A disciple is not a superior version of a Christian, a disciple is just a Christian. The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch. A Gospel that does not fully embrace each one of these teachings is not the Gospel of Christ. These are the lessons that we all must learn if we are to be genuine disciples of Christ. Jesus is saying that to fail to live according to what is taught in any of these lessons is to be no disciple of his and to bring destruction upon yourself.

Unfortunately the new doctrine of Justification by faith alone without any works makes all of these teachings a non-issue. Yes we say, if we want to really please God then we should do these things out of love for him but it is not absolutely necessary because my faith has got me covered. Hear what Jesus says, he doesn't teach that at all.

The warnings are clear, to fail to obey the teaching of these lessons stops discipleship.

The Sower: no fruit. -destruction Matt. 13:3-23

Pearl of great price : no pearl or no Christ. -destruction Matt. 13:45,46

Unforgiving servant: no forgiveness. -destruction Matt. 18:23-25

No garment at the wedding feast: no place at the table -destruction. Matt. 22:2-14

The unfaithul servant. -destruction Luke 12:35-40

Will we let the word produce a holy fear of God in us, or will we refuse to see the Lord as he really is and create a God in our own image, a God who could never deliver to destruction those who have come to believe on him, though he has warned us time after time that he in fact will send to outer darkness all those who heard the call but didn't count the cost and persevere. Who is he talking to in these parables? He is talking to those who would genuinely follow him. He is as much as saying, it is good that you want to follow me, but if you want to follow me this is how it works. Adherence to his teachings is required for good standing with the Lord and not faith alone.

In every word Jesus is teaching here he is implicitly crying out against Once Saved Always Saved. Warning after warning of destruction to the foolish disciple.

But it is not just in the parables, it is in the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation. Warning the wicked to walk righteously, and example after example of destruction to those who failed to do so, whether they were Gods people or no. Gods son Jesus warns us time after time of the path that must be walked in order to be saved. Flee from the false doctrines that would deny the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. Does God love you? Yes he does, that is why he sent his Son Jesus to die for you and to tell you the words of truth. Now will you hear them?



Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
-Jesus Christ



_________________
Noel Pautsky

 2005/12/4 6:13Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Graftedbranch, you seem to look at justification leading to sanctification and these being the same thing while I look at them as separate experiences. I think of justification as a baby Christian and Sanctification as an adult. To me one becomes sanctified by believing on the Lords work {his offering for us} and at the same time choosing to walk the walk. God's grace includes the ability to resist sin not just the taking away of past sin. In this I see man's choice and free will in that person living a sanctified life but not separate from God's enabling man to choose and live this separated life.



2 Thess 2:13 But we ought to thank God always concerning you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

1 Peter 1:2 "Chosen according to the foreknowlege of God the Father in the sanctification of the Spirit unto the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied"

The verse in 2 Thess 2:13 tells us salvation is unto sanctifiecation of the Spirit and beleif of the truth, and 1 Peter 1:2 tells us we were chosen in the sanctification of the Spirit unto the obedience and sprinkling of the blood...

Sanctification is the process we are saved into. It is not some future thing or second work of grace but the process begun even before we are regenerated (2 Peter). The Spirit sanctifies us unto the obedience of faith and the sprinkling of the Blood.

The convicting Spirit sanctifies us unto repentance and faith, applies the redeeming Blood, and regenerates us.

Sanctification encompasses the whole work of the Spirit from conviction of sin and the revelation of Christ to separating us from the world, sin and self unto God and conforming us to the image of Christ transforming us in all aspects of our being. And eventually at our Lord's comming our bodies also will be sanctified by the indwelling Spirit (Romans 8).

Sanctification is a life long process begun at conversion and regeneration and ending with the redemption of our bodies.

We need a much wider concept of sanctification.

Graftedbranch



 2005/12/4 22:01Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy