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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
Are you referring to "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit", or is there another sermon of Keith Daniel that touches on this subject? I know that one is a very good message.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1857]Every Branch in Me that Beareth Not Fruit[/url]
Yes! That was the one I was referring to.
Quote:
this truth of personal responsibility for our eternal judgement is already settled in my heart.

And that does seem to pretty well settle it, well spoken. I guess it still strikes me as one more awesome truth to consider from a different line of thinking altogether. This tenuous 'assurance' is swallowed up by such sheer wonder that it could still be true that it becomes a secondary issue practically.


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Mike Balog

 2005/12/3 1:37Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Why would God graft in more branches that had the same capacity to be just like Israel. When you take care of an Olive tree, the root stays the same but the One that prunes and cuts off branches that won't produce or has bad fruit grafts in a new branch and it begins to draw the sustenance from the root system if the grafted in branch did not have a different ability and a new life it would do no good to graft the branch in. We grafted in branches have a different nature and that nature is Christ in you the Hope of Glory, and a new capacity with the Holy Spirit in us and not just upon us from the outside, but born again with the Christ Seed and filled and baptized into the Holy Spirit. We have a different ability as grafted in branches, we are Born of God and His Seed remains in us, that part of the Christian that has the Seed of Christ cannot sin, only the Flesh and that has even been quickened to hold the Christ of God and the Holy Spirit that we might be called son's of God. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. There is a difference in the branch that is grafted in, it now has the power of God Himself by the Nature of Christ Himself with His Blood flowing in the Branch to keep us from sin, and The Holy Spirit is our Teacher Comforter to teach us this truth given Him By Christ for us. This is the different covenant of the New Testament, that is why it is no longer I who life but Christ who lives in me, This does not make me better than Israel and we should not have that kind of attitude which Israel ended up with and God broke the bad and unfruitful branches off to graft in the Born Again, Gentile or Jew In Christ there is none but grafted in branches and we are different, but could wind up the same way if we don't trust the Christ in us for everything, that the middle wall of partition has been torn down in Christ. We are a new race of branch, Christ is the answer to all these problems and as Paul says "Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." The new creature is the Grafted in Branches because that Branch not has the Blood of Christ filling all that the new creature is and the Spirit of Christ replacing the spirit of the devil who used to be our father. The final Gospel of Christ in us the Hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/12/3 4:44Profile
GaryE
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Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:


In John chapter 15 it is the vine and the branches. With grape vines a person breaks off the old branches that aren't bearing fruit in the spring of the year. The new growth are what bears fruit in the coming year. You also break off any dead stuff because it will carry disease. Even underneath the vine you have to clean away dead stuff or disease can keep the vine from bearing fruit. You take all the old branches and dead things and burn them to kill any leftover diseases so that a disease doesn't affect the whole plant and you loose your crop.

In the parable the vine is Christ and the branches that are burned are branches that won't bear fruit. We are the branches and if we don't bear fruit we are like salt that has lost it's savor and are good for nothing. God burns in a fire the branches that don't abide in him. Hopefully yours and my life are more fruitfull than the olive tree that Jesus cursed.

In Christ,
GaryE


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Gary Eckenroth

 2005/12/3 5:09Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
By what means does God use to create a genuine believer?



Repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Chirst.

When we believe into the Lord Jesus Christ, we are regenerated. Our dead human spirit is resurrected and indwelt by Christ in whom is eternal Life. We are translated from the domain of darkness into to the Kingdom of the Son of His Love. Old things pass away, behold all things become New.

John 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that everyone who believes into Him may have eternal Life."

Galatians 3:1-2 O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly portrayed crucified? This only I wish to learn from you, Did you recieve the Spirit out of the works of Law or out of the hearing of Faith?

vs. 9.10 So then they who are of faith are blessed with believeing Abraham. For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things written in the book of the law to do them.

1 Peter 3:1-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, Unto an inheritance, incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, kept in the heavens for you, who are being guarded by the Power of God through fatih unto a salvation ready to be revealed at the last time."

John 1:12: But as many as recieved Him, to them He gave the authority to become the children of God, to those who believe into His Name, who were born... of God".

Romans 10:9,10 "That If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation...(vs 13) For whoever calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved"

THe entrance into the Christian Life is through believeing into the Lord Jesus Christ, being regenerated and recieving His eternal Life, being born of God to be children of God with His incorruptable, eternal, imperishable, Life.

Graftedbranch





 2005/12/3 8:45Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
This tenuous 'assurance' is swallowed up by such sheer wonder that it could still be true that it becomes a secondary issue practically.



Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and What is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe."

How anyone can make any progress in the Christian Life without "assurance" is a mystery. Assurance is in our position with God, our being justified by His Blood, and born of God with His LIfe, It is based in the redemption in Christ, the suffeciency of His Blood, and His all conquering overcomming resurrection Life.

How can I even believe God for anything if I don't even have the assurance that I am His and how can I have "hope" if I am not even assured of the object of that hope?.

How can I overcome the "accuser of the Brethren" if I have no testimony to the Blood of the Lamb?

What does it mean to be justified, to be clothed with the robe of Christ as our rightousness? To be found in Him, not having a rightousness of my own, derived from law, but that which comes through faith in Christ. The rightousness which comes from God on the basis of faith?

How can I grow in the Divine Life if I am continually doubting that I even have the Divine Life? How can I rejoice always if I am constantly trying to prove to myself and to God that I am saved?

How can I sit and wonder at the wonders of His Love and Grace and Mercy and how can I grow in the Divine Romance loving my Bridgroom, if I am constantly under the fear that He may cast me into eternal perdition?

Striving, doubt, and fear are the opposite of faith, hope, and love.

Romans 1:1-2, 5 - Therefore having been justified out of faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand and boast because of the hope of the glory of God.. And hope does not put us to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us..

Romans 8:15-17 For you have not received a spirit of slavery bringing you into fear again, but you have received a spirit of sonship in which we cry "Abba Father"; the Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God, And if children, heirs also. heirs of God..."

If the Spirit witnessing with our spirit is not "assurance" then what is it? Assurance of what? That we are childern of God and heirs also.

It is our natural fallen nature which has partaken of the tree of the knowlege of Good and evil that wants to make salvation based in our works or our own faithfulness. We think repentance is from evil to good, but it is not. It is from the tree of the knowlege of good and evil to Christ as the Tree of Life.

Graftedbranch

 2005/12/3 9:15Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Please look in the "mirror"

Graftedbranch said:

Quote:
How can I grow in the Divine Life if I am continually doubting that I even have the Divine Life? How can I rejoice always if I am constantly trying to prove to myself and to God that I am saved?



This is a valid point. After all, lacking faith is a sin in itself, and a barrier to growth. The problem is that many have a faith that is not based on truth. So in the end they will say, “Lord, Lord…. (based on their faith)” and end up being rejected by Christ. There will be a lot of people in hell who trusted in OSAS, and also believed the opposite.

We can debate this till Christ returns, but if we don’t have a deep concern for this issue of self-delusion and false trust, we will have wasted a lot of time, and essentially been just as blind as the Pharisees. As I said earlier, that’s why we need to apply the MIRROR analogy mentioned in the book of James. Earlier I made some comments that I thought gave us something to consider.
Quote:
Eternal life (in some way) is mentioned in every book of the NT except Philemon and 3 John …
The two-edged sword of God’s word always divides in the right places:
“Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven.” Phil. 3:20
“Set your mind on things above, not on earthly things.” Col. 3;3
This seems like good criteria to help us discern if we are truly saved or one of the many who are deceived.


GB, I feel that you missed the point when you lumped a whole lot of concepts together:
Quote:
Eschatology, the kingdom, the sequence of events. The present age vs. the comming age, Eternal Life, The Judgement Seat of Christ, etc. indeed are somewhat complex subjects


In my spirit I wonder: Why this response? Is it a way of running from the sharp-edged truth that pierces the heart?

One can hide behind theologizing for only so long. It may be helpful, but at some point it becomes like “figleaves” – a way of hiding from the convicting power of the Spirit.

Diane


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Diane

 2005/12/3 9:44Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
The problem is that many have a faith that is not based on truth. So in the end they will say, “Lord, Lord…. (based on their faith)” and end up being rejected by Christ. There will be a lot of people in hell who trusted in OSAS, and also believed the opposite.



This is a good point Diane. But is the answer to this to be in fear of presenting Christ as our all sufficiency? Can we not preach the gospel of Christ and trust the Spirit to convict those who are not genuinly saved?

We can't turn from truth in fear that some may misunderstand it and missapply it.

In Romans 5 and 6 Paul lays out clearly justification by faith alone. He does not qualify it but rather says, "what then should we continue in sin that grace may abound? May it never be...

His obvious implication is that many may think this is the result of what He just presented. But his answer to it is not to disqualify it but to go on to show how being baptised into Christ brings us into Union with Christ in His death and resurrection which bears fruit unto God.

Justification reconciles us to God but our union with Christ produces the fruits of Christ's death and resurrection in us which issues in a life lived unto God.

We get stuck in Romans 5 and it's implications because we don't go on to Romans 6,7, and 8 to see the fruit of Christ's Life within us.

If a natural man is proclaimed justified and left in his origional condition, he would indeed conclude that he can just live as he has always lived, But the Reality of Christ within us produces a godly life which is the fruit of justification and union with Christ, not the cause of it. If a person is comfortable in his natural state and has no desire to go on and to "live unto God" it is evidence he is not justified, He has not believed into Christ, he is not regenerated and does not have eternal Life.

If we believers as members of the body of Christ would live in the reality of our justification and union with Christ in a genuine and vital way, Those who come in among us who have a false security would soon be convicted because they don't see the fruits of Christ within them as they see in others. The Atmousphere of the Reality of Christ in us would convict many who are falsly assured and give encouragement to those who genuinly have been saved.

But to shy away from the truth of the assurance of salvation in fear that some may be self decieved is to rob those who are saved from the enjoyment of the assurance and security which is their inheritance in Christ.

If a church is living Christ and there is the reality of the Spirit in them and they are growing in the Divine Life, if you come in among them and are not really saved, you will either get saved or you will probably leave because if the church is not worldly but living Christ, there is nothing to keep them there. Nothing of the world to attract them, nothing to gratify the Flesh. If Christ is all you have to offer, and your only enjoyment, then those who don't care for this will go their way.

1 cor 14:25 The Secrets of his heart become manifest; and so falling on his face, he will worship God, declaring that indeed God is among you".

The fact that many can remain in a church for years and have false security is really an indictment of the condition of the church. Not that they are preachnig "OSAS' but because people can be in thier midst with no sense of Christ and no reality of the Spirit and feel at home there.

But what do churches do? They fill up their "programs" with shows and dramas and dynamic singers and "praise teams" which keep people emotionally stimulated and feeling religious and so they keep comming. They enjoy the show.

Graftedbranch

 2005/12/3 10:16Profile
clownstruth
Member



Joined: 2005/12/3
Posts: 8


 Re:

So, does the OSAS doctrine mean that it's not possible to turn your back on God? What about the unforgiveable sin? Paul says that he was guilty, but was forgiven because he didn't really know God. That would mean that the only way for the unforgiveable sin to exist would be to first know God, and then blaspheme the Spirit?

 2005/12/3 10:44Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
So, does the OSAS doctrine mean that it's not possible to turn your back on God? What about the unforgiveable sin? Paul says that he was guilty, but was forgiven because he didn't really know God. That would mean that the only way for the unforgiveable sin to exist would be to first know God, and then blaspheme the Spirit?



Who among us who have known the Lord for a period of time can testify that we have never, 'turned our back on God" Expecially when we are young and the allurements of the world are there and our friends are having what seems a good time?

We may even go for a time and determine to try to be like them and to enjoy what they enjoy. Yet as we go, there is within us in our spirit the sense of condemnation. To the degree of the Light we have recieved and enjoyed, to that degree the Spirit within convicts us. He has already gained that ground in us. We know we are wrong, we know we have no business being in this or that place and doing the things we are doing. The Spirit is still operating within us to convict us and to keep us from resting confortably there. We just cannot be at peace in that sort of situation and we keep looking over our shoulder for fear some saint in the church may see us.

Yet the sense is not that we are lost. That we need to be "saved" again. But that we are out of fellowship with God and we are being hipocrits. Not the kind which tries to act like a Christian when we are not, but the Kind who is a Christian and is acting like he is not.

But in the mercy of God the Lord Jesus leaves the 99 and goes and recovers the one sheep who has gone astray, He does not leave us in that condition. He recoveres us because He has set His love upon us and has predestinated us to be conformed to His image.

How does he do this? He stirs up others to pray for us, They plead with God on our behalf in fellowship with Christ as our High Priest. They seek us out. They come to us in His Name and seek to restore us co-operating with Him as the Good Shephard in their spirit. Or perhaps the Lord leads them to avoid us and we are put to shame. If this does not work He may even bring in some devestation in our life or severe dicipline. God causes all things to work together for our good and the Spirit within us interceeds according to the will of God. By the Rod or by the staff, the Lord recovers us.

But in returning, on what basis do we return? It is the Spirit within us who convicts us and brings us back so we don't have to be "re-regenerated". We are born of God and have His Life. But we need our fellowship restored, we need to be clensed from all sin by His precious blood to enjoy intimate communion with Him and to go on and grow in Him and to be in fellowship with the body of Christ and to be usable to Him . The Spirit is within us but He is quenched and grieved. We need the application of the clensing blood through confession and calling on the Lord to be restored to communion and fellowship.

But of course as we come to Him the accuser of the brethrn will be hot on our tail saying, "see, you are no Christian. No believer would do the things you have done. It is pointless, you have commited the "unpardenable sin". Look in your heart, it is cold. You cannot be saved. You are a hipocrit." This is his tactic. And If we give in we will fall into dispair. But if we exercise our spirit to testify to the wonderful blood of Christ, that we are justified, that we are regenerated, that we are eternally saved, he is silenced and as we testify to the the truth of His Word, the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are childern of God.

As Westley said, "The Spirit answers to the Blood (not our condition) and tells me I am born of God"

Those whom He called, He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.

Graftedbranch

 2005/12/3 10:58Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: Spiritual warfare and assurance

1 John 2:14 I have written to you, young men, because you are strong and the word of God abides in you and you have overcome the evil one."

Here is another questian.

How can a person engage in spiritual warfare on behalf of others if he himself has no assurance? If he is always taken up with his own standing before God, how can he engage God's enemy? And on what basis?

What is a spiritual warrior? Is it a person who has so much bible knowlege he can defeat other's arguments? No. That is a mental warrior and can only produce "mental results".

A spiritul warrior is a person who'se command of scripture enables him to express those truths in the bible which are incorporated into his being. One in whom the Lord has a yeilded and broken vessel and who's knowlege of the truth is not just in his head but is worked by the Spirit into his person. He is "sanctified in the truth". The Word of God abides in him.

He is a person who can engage the enemy. One who can wrestle in his spirit and overcome through Christ.

The Lord wants to take us beyond "the elementary principles of repentance and faith and baptism and such to become mature sons and to "grow up in all things into Christ who is the head. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons (not mere children) of God."

But if we don't even have that assurace that we are "in Christ" how can we "grow up in all things into Christ?"

Being "in Christ' and knowing it and living in light of it and in the power and reality of it is the beginning of our Christian Life. Not the end of it. Our regeneration and union with Christ is the the starting point. All growth flows from this initial establishment of our organic relationship with Christ.

Regeneration puts us into Christ and Christ into us. Everything else flows from this. Anything that does not flow from this is not the Christian Life. It is something else. Our need is to have our eyes opened to see, "the riches of the glory of His inheritence in the saints".

The Riches, Oh the riches
Christ my Saviour has for me.
How unsearchable their measure,
Yet my full reality.

Graftedbranch





 2005/12/3 13:40Profile





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