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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

On the other hand...

Diane, thank you. Had noticed the use of the "law" there earlier as well, "Freedom" "Liberty"... [i]Perfect[/i]

Quote:
The warnings are not for the other guy, they are for us!

Quote:
Trust me, I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone. I think God is speaking to ME.



You bet, for what it's worth, I never go away from here without my own expressions rebounding around this melon, asking the same questions.
Well said sister.


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Mike Balog

 2005/12/1 15:44Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

These things tend to get off track sometimes and interestingly enough thought Diane had something that actually applied to the whole of OSAS relating thoughts to James...

But to come back to the main again a couple of pages back;

npautsky

Quote:
I have an open question about OSAS to anyone who wants to answer. What is in fact the truth? How do you explain this part of the word of God?

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.



There is a really good message by Keith Daniel on this and the reason might surprise you...
I don't think he ever really answers the question and that leads to the next surprise, he never set out to... But I think he drives the point home quite well, perhaps someone can dig it up or I will see if I can track it later.

Might try a search here on this (OSAS) as well, there has been a bit of discussion in the past.
My take on this?.... "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner"


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/12/1 15:57Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Noel wrote:

Quote:
How do you deal with the explicit teaching in these verses? I understand there are other verses in the Bible, but how do you deal with these?



I have asked the same question many times. Only a few will come to submit to the Scriptures in a way that is described by Luke 8

15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

Luke 8:16 “No one, when he has lit a lamp, covers it with a vessel or puts it under a bed, but sets it on a lampstand, that those who enter may see the light. 17 For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light. 18 Therefore take heed how you hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him.”

One may start out with the Word of God in their heart, yet Satan, trials, tribulation, and the lust for this life choke it out. Living in the house for a time but now no longer.

Keep preaching like James

18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

Who will hear the word of truth? It is all there in Scripture, but do we really want to hear the whole counsil of God? The Jews heard the gospel according to Paul yet they chose not to believe.

Romans 10

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom. 10:18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:
“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”

The OT people also heard the same gospel, according to the Holy Scriptures.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/12/1 16:07Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.



I am sure many will not agree with this but I will share the "view of the recovery' if that is ok. This view was expounded in its fullest form by D.M. Panton in the 1800s in his book, 'The Judgement Seat of Christ". I also beieve T. Austin Sparks held this view though I am not certian, I know he was one in most things with Watchman Nee and the recovery up till the late 1950s.

This verse is refering to the judgement seat of Christ. And it is in reference to entering the Kingdom as a reward. And those who do not, but yet are believers will suffer the dicipline of the Lord outside. They will be "hurt by the second death" but not consumed by it as the Lord says in Revelation.

A corosponding verse is Hebrews 6:7,8 For the earth that drinks the rain which often comes upon it and produces vegation suitable to those for whose sake also it is cultivated, partakes of blessing from God.

But if it brings foth thorns and thistles, it is disapproved and near a curse, whose end is to be burned."

Footnote regarding "near a curse" is as follows,

"Once saved, the believers can never be a real curse. However, if they do not go on to grow Christ... they are near the curse of suffering the punishment of God's governmental dealing. Being near a curse is absolutely different from the suffering of eternal perdition, which is the real curse."

In all the conditional passages usually quoted by those who believe that genuine believers can perish the application is in reference to the Kingdom and not Eternal Life which is the portion and inheritance of all who are born of God and possess His life. (If Children, then heirs, hiers of God and joint heirs with Christ if so be that we suffer with Him that we also may be glorified together with Him (Romans 8:17)

The 10 Virgins were all believers. They all had oil in their lamps. But only those who had their vessels full of the oil were admitted to the Marriage supper of the lamb. The others were not. The Vessels refers to our soul. Those who are merely regenerated but have not gone on to be renewed and transformed in their soul by daily taking thier cross, denying their soul life and following Him, will not be admitted. Those who merely contain the oil but are not filled and saturated by the Oil will be excluded. Those slothful servants who were not found doing their Master's work but said, "the Master tarries, let is eat and drink...will be disiplined in a severe way. Those who have not forgiven their brothers as they have been forgiven will "not come out of there till they have paid the last farthing". And those who have built upon the foundation of Christ with wood, hay and stubble will be saved but their works will be consumed by the fire, yet they themselves will be saved.

But in the end following the Lord's reign in the 1000 year kingdom, those who sufferd God's dicipline will be matured and "perfected in His Life", and all will enjoy the complete salvation of God in the New Jeruselem in the new Earth. All will be the "perfected" bride, the Wife of the Lamb.

This comes to us as a stern warning that there are consequences to our living and our pursuit or lack of it of the Lord. If we remain the same and do not grow in the Divine Life but remain in an imature and soulish way, we will not 'reign with Him" because we do not "suffer with Him"

I have found that the scriptures bear this up if you take the time and set aside preconcieved ideas and concepts and are willing to look outside of our traditional interpretations which generally either follow those of Calvin or those of Jacob Arminias.

The reality is both views cannot be right. Either, one, the other, or neither is right. But both cannot be correct. And we have to believe that there is a true view which does no violence to any of the related scriptures.

But I know this is not the common view. I have come to see and hold this view. Others will surely dissagree. But I have found it in all my studies to be the only view which adaquitly reconciles the scriptures which seem conclusivly to support both sides of the "OSAS" issue.

Paul on the one hand says concering those who commit such things as fornication, etc. will not inherit the Kingdom of God. But on the other hand Paul says of the One in Corrinth who was sleeping with his father's wife, 'I have given him over to Satan for the distruction of his flesh that his spirit might be saved in that day. Paul did not regard this brother as lost. IN fact as a result of the dicipline of the church, this brother according to 2 cor. repented and Paul admonished them to recieve him back into fellowship.

I will add to here though, I believe this view lied buried until Panton's time because of Protestant"s reaction to the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory. There on the surface an apparant similarity. But if both are studied in light of scripture, they will be seen to bear no resemblance. Prurgaroty has no support in scripture.

Graftedbranch







 2005/12/1 16:18Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Brothers,

I am beginning to see my name too much around here. When I look at all the threads, I see "graftedbranch". I seem to have something to say about everything.

I believe I should hold my peace and let others have an opportunity to explore and comment. I don't feel it is my calling to express my views and try to "straighten" everyone else out according to my views.

Debating can be profitable if it is in the Spirit and in a good way recognizing that we all live to our Master and to Him alone we will give an account.

It is obvious to me that I have too many words.

The grace of the Lord be with you all.

Brother Graftedbranch

 2005/12/1 19:32Profile
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:


As I wrote earlier that I had heard that Martin Luther did not think that James should be in the bible, I also heard that he didn’t believe that the book of Revelation should be in there either. Just as mention earlier, there were certain verses that were probably the reason for this in James, these verses below were probably the reason he did not like the book of Revelation.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

Has everyone noticed that the words to him that overcometh were spoken to each of the seven churches?

In Christ,
GaryE


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Gary Eckenroth

 2005/12/1 22:01Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
Has everyone noticed that the words to him that overcometh were spoken to each of the seven churches?


Uh... no! Great point brother. Never did notice that in that way. Something to think about.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/12/1 22:27Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: endurance

Quote:
Has everyone noticed that the words to him that overcometh were spoken to each of the seven churches?


Just imagine for a minute if we could revisit this very same discussion after a few years of enduring severe persecution. Our words would be entirely different.

I know that, at this time, I cannot imagine being an overcomer. I could not endure losing all my worldy securities - having lived in the affluent West all my life. I could not endure being misunderstod, mocked and hated for my faith. I need a working of God within me to refine my faith. I trust in God's promise: "He who began a good work will carry it on to completion." If he didn't, I would not get there.

Another thought:
I once heard it said that much of scripture can only be understood under persecution. I suspect that a lot of our present confusion and endless verbosity regarding this topic would be quickly cleared in the face of persecution. We may even be silenced.

Diane


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Diane

 2005/12/1 22:45Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:


Can You Lose Your Salvation

Hbr 6:1-12; Jhn 5:24; Jhn 6:35-40; Jhn 6:44; Jhn 6:46-51; Jhn 6:53-58; Jhn 6:60-65; Jhn 10:27-30; Jhn 12:32; Tts 2:11; 1Jo 2:2; Jon 1:1-3; Jon 2:1-10;

How do we recieve salvation. Who's salvation is it? John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:34-40 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Specifically :37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Does this sound like we can loose salvation? It is of the Father. Salvation is kept by Christ.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If we are given to the Son by the Father and The Father draws us to Him and the Son receives us and won't cast us out. what can we do loose something that is not ours in the first place.

This is our Bread even Christ Jesus Himself.

John 6:57-58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

There are Christians and there are counterfeit Christians. Have any of us ever turned our backs on Jesus and went our own way? If we are honest the answer is Yes. Are we come back, are we eating the Bread of Life, are we spreading the Word? Remember Jonah and the big fish, These are true Christians owned and purchased by God and when Jonah said no, God said, you are my possession and you will do what I want or else. We know what the or else was, a Prophet for Nineva in a pile of Fish throwup on the beach just outside of Nineva.

There are counterfeit Christians like Heb 6 who have tasted of the Goodness of God and seen miracles and profess to be true to Jesus, but are Not, like Judas. Heb 6 says this kind cannot be brought back, it is impossible because they would have to crucify Christ again.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Judas repented and hanged himself, but it was impossible to renew him again, Jesus said he was the only one He had lost of those the Father had given him and that was to fulfill scripture.

This is usually the scripture the Armenians use to prove Christians can loose their salvation.

This is the scripture that Calvinists use for OSAS that God would not do this to a saved person.

Both are wrong. The word impossible is the same as in Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

If we sin, is it impossible for us to come back? John says No. 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Because 1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

It is impossible for a Christian to loose his Salvation, It is possible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away. They did not fall away from Salvation which is of the Father, but they fell away because they were religious counterfeits.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2005/12/2 1:34Profile
npautsky
Member



Joined: 2003/9/10
Posts: 82
Texas

 Re:

Hello crsschk,

Are you referring to "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit", or is there another sermon of Keith Daniel that touches on this subject? I know that one is a very good message.

I am only asking the question about osas for others sake to hopefully set them to thinking about the truth in this matter. Like Jesus rising from the dead, and the reality of Christ in us, and the purity of the word of God, -Like silver tried seven times in a furnace- this truth of personal responsibility for our eternal judgement is already settled in my heart.


_________________
Noel Pautsky

 2005/12/2 2:02Profile





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