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Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

Again, this is only your (LR) slant on things. The fact that only one man records these things is not a proof that he was the only one who had the revelation.

And this is only your slant on things, Correct? Then study Galatians and Colossians and prove me wrong. How many times must Paul say He was the only man this was revealed to at the time he expresses for us to believe him. This is God speaking through Paul or we must throw Paul out of the Cannon of the New Testament.

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Paul was the first but not the last, and this revelation of Christ in you is still being revealed to those who would believe.


In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2005/12/1 3:11Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
And this is only your slant on things, Correct? Then study Galatians and Colossians and prove me wrong. How many times must Paul say He was the only man this was revealed to at the time he expresses for us to believe him. This is God speaking through Paul or we must throw Paul out of the Cannon of the New Testament.

This is ludicrous. Paul, in Galatians, takes pains to show that the church at Jerusalem was one with him in his revelation. His frequent references to the revelation are to set him apart from the other apostles but to show he is one of them, having had a personal encounter with Christ. Why are you ignoring the Ephesian (circular) letter where Paul plainly says that the revelation was received by 'the apostles and prophets'?

Are you really saying that for the first 13 chapters of Acts (until Paul came 'on stream' in Antioch) the church was without the revelation and experience of 'Christ in you, the hope of glory'? This is as foolish as saying that the 'recovery' began 70 years ago.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/12/1 3:49Profile
Warrior4Jah
Member



Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re:

Hi Christinyou,

Quote:
Don't try to make the Holy Spirit, Christ, it will only commingle the Truth of the Word and confuse all who Hear. The Holy Spirit is the only One who is on this earth doing the Work of the Father prayed for By Jesus Christ Himself.
John 16:7-14 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


I am not to think up an answer to that and reply quickly to this, falling in the trap of departing with scripture and stating my own about this. So I'll stop the discussion about that from my part.

I do know that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are God. Saying that the Holy Spirit lives in man would be to state that God lives in you, which is true and the case. However I trust that the Holy Spirit will correct me when I advance through scripture over time to deepen my understanding or to correct wrong things.

I won't get quick answers, I am still reading through the whole Bible for the first time. Note that the Spirit of God was also present in the OT. Right now John chapter 1 comes to mind:

[b]Joh 1:1-4[/b]
[i](1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) He was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
(4) In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.[/i]

Also some things will remain to be a mystery, but that doesn't make them less true if they are in Gods Word. Right now we look in a fuzzy mirror. :-P (1Cor 13:12)

Quote:
Don't read this then come up with your own answer to it being wrong, but proof it like Bereans and use the Word to make it wrong or right. Be slow to speak but quick to listen.

If you don't see the truth then ask the Holy Spirit to proof it and show me wrong. I speak as Paul, the truth that is revealed in me by Him that sent Him. Making Christ in you the Hope of Glory the most Glory that any created being has ever or will ever receive. Amen.

In Christ: Phillip


As you point to scripture and to the Lord thats good advise.
God bless and keep looking on the Lord!

A seeker of Gods Truth,
Jonathan


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Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/12/1 5:33Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: The book of James

I have to admit that I got lost in the dust a few posts ago. Nevertheless, I feel God had not wanted me to drop out altogether. This morning I decided to read the book of James for myself– afresh. It came alive like never before. Suddenly new light dawned on me: James is placed where it is, by a divine miracle – because we need it to bring us back into proper focus.

The book of James is like a bullet that hits our heart. God knows how prone we are to chase after rabbit trails – and take a single aspect of truth far off the center. (Which we might do after studying Hebrews) So the book of James brings us back into reality in case our minds started to drift too far.

To me, the key verse is: “Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. In other words, he continually DISCUSSES the Word, but can’t see HIMSELF in that Word.”

A few more thoughts:
Note the word: “freedom”
But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives FREEDOM, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, doing it, - he will be blessed in what he does.” James 1:25 Our obsession with theological debate can very well be a bondage…a way to avoid dealing with what we see in the “mirror” (ouch!) But it never brings us to the freedom that Christ came to give us.

James is the perfect book for all who think that they are right, who believe that they have the line on the truth. It deals with the common temptations of the religious righteous. It deals with those who have become smug in their OSAS assurances. It brings us to the greatest commandment – the “golden rule” – our relationships with others.

It also deals with God’s children who lack assurance and forget who they are: He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first-fruits of all he created.” ..1:18 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life… 1:12

The warnings are not for the other guy, they are for us!
WHEN tempted…” 1:13 (not IF tempted)
Don’t be deceived. 1:16

Why not think more about how our words and discussion affect others who read our comments? Do our words merely justify ourselves, (sinful desire) or do they encourage others to hunger for God and his word?

May God give us good vision and good memory when we look in the “mirror”.

James 4:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.” (and set free).

Trust me, I'm not pointing any fingers at anyone. I think God is speaking to ME.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2005/12/1 8:56Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Attitude adjustment

I am quite surprised to come back to this and still see the same unbelievable extrapolations being held up. This whole argument regarding James is a straw man and it is this absurd launching point should have been stopped long before it got started.

In this case a measuring bar was set to hold up this weightless straw man and the "proof" was "show me" thus and so.

Quote:
""I believe brother Phillip is saying here that James was born of God but did not have the full revelation of all it implies. He is suggesting that Christ was in him but he did not see it clearly in the New Testament Light.""



What kind of an argument is that? Do you find recipes for bean dip in an auto manual? How can one derive a judgment that James or anybody did or did not have a "full revelation" or "did not see clearly" from one letter? Is this the kind of judgment you would suppose upon anyone from one article, from such a small snapshot of specifics being addressed... It is the height of absurdity.

To suppose this much by doing this bizarre comparison is just wrong. All these unworthy arguments are settled and shattered in the very first statement;

Jam 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.

And you few here who want to sit as high-minded opinionators ought to be ashamed of your audacity to presuppose such nonsense of lowering and exalting anyway which you choose based on spurious and round hole, square peg logic. This is just pure rubbish.
Quote:
And this is only your slant on things, Correct? Then study Galatians and Colossians and prove me wrong. How many times must Paul say He was the only man this was revealed to at the time he expresses for us to believe him. This is God speaking through Paul or we must throw Paul out of the Cannon of the New Testament.


This is just as illogical and has already been answered.
Quote:
If you don't see the truth then ask the Holy Spirit to proof it and show me wrong. I speak as Paul, the truth that is revealed in me by Him that sent Him. Making Christ in you the Hope of Glory the most Glory that any created being has ever or will ever receive. Amen.

In Christ: Phillip


Are you sure about that?
"Show me wrong"
"I speak as Paul"?

No problem speaking in James stead and managing somehow to climb inside his head and then reveal his supposed lack... What do those statements say about the pride back of it?

There is a wrongheadedness about all this. That one part of scripture is articulating one area and another part another is not to set them at odds against each other. A good bit of advise expressed here a long time ago was to look at scripture as if you were to examine a part of it by lifting it up to look closely at it, but be sure you put it back where you found it when you were done with it.

This has been brought up before but it really is disheartening to hear from Christians that have enough nerve and shortsightedness to start making all kinds of character pronouncements on the disciples, the saints, men and women of God in the scriptures without even considering both the surroundings and times they lived in, the persecution that hung over them at times, the settings, the context, a whole host of considerations.

More so, that just from the plainest reading of the New Testament if we were to set that alone since it bears on all this wonder of wonders coming out here... Before playing arm chair theologians, put yourself in their shoes and walk, and think and muse on all the things the Lord spoke to them, what He was addressing. Heart matters, thought matters, humility and pride. Sin. Repentance. Judging with [i]right[/i] judgment. It grows weary and tired and grievous to hear time and again slights on Peter or Thomas or now curiously enough James... This one is contentious or Peter is this and Paul is... One has more 'light' and another less and John is the apostle of love and John the Baptist is "old school". There are neither "super apostles" as Paul put it to be enshrined in glass windows and beyond reach of mere lay persons but human, flesh and blood people that had failings and difficulties and problems, no different than any of us. Ask yourself some different questions, how might have you reacted in similar circumstances?
And another to think about, beyond Paul how much of a biography do we have of these particular individuals? And even if that was so, where the penchant to make character assumptions anyway?

One more to address that keeps popping up...
"Enjoying" the spirit, very interesting, surely as a byproduct, as an undergirding perhaps but the sentiments of Paris Reidhead come up, is this all to make us happy? Is that what this walk is supposed to be about? or is it to Gods glory, not merely as a add on, the "Christianease" thing to say. Think about it, how much of this wrangling is addressed to ones own felt needs? "I get more "light" from...." "I "enjoy" this more so 'x' gets short shrift.

One of things that was appealing about coming here in the first place was the painful reality of men of God who expressed the truth of the matter, with all the honesty that requires. We are a comfortable bunch, feeding on pleasant things that make us feel good, one spiritual high after another. One would have to be a fool indeed to go seeking after 'punishment' for it's own sake that is not the drive. But there is a suffering that is worthy IF it is for His sake and I dare to say that many of us know next to nothing about it, yet can go on commentating about things read but not experienced. There are believers being persecuted and killed for the truths that some want to play mental hopscotch with and if anyone, their "enjoyment" would be of a sort that we can hardly imagine. Try putting forth some of this 'educated' nonsense before those believers, if you dare. We need our perceptions drastically altered.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/12/1 9:07Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Well said Mike.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/12/1 10:07Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
"Enjoying" the spirit, very interesting, surely as a byproduct, as an undergirding perhaps but the sentiments of Paris Reidhead come up, is this all to make us happy? Is that what this walk is supposed to be about? or is it to Gods glory, not merely as a add on, the "Christianease" thing to say. Think about it, how much of this wrangling is addressed to ones own felt needs? "I get more "light" from...." "I "enjoy" this more so 'x' gets short shrift.



Brother Mike,

By 'enjoying the Lord" is simply another way of saying "find joy in' or "rejoice in the Lord". The key element is "joy', Not necessarily happy feelings in our emotions, but the enjoyment of the reality.

In His Presence is fullness of Joy.

To enjoy the Lord in a particular way is to see something of Christ in the Word, and through prayer and fellowship with the Lord to have that thing become a reality in our experience.

Phillipeans tells us 'Rejoice in the Lord always... Let your forebearance be known to all men. Be anxious for nothing but in all things by prayer and petition let your request be made known unto God and the Peace of God which surpasses understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

This is more than a mental exercise. Our prayer and fellowship with the Lord brings in the Lord as Peace and our hearts and minds are guarded.

While it may not be full of feelings and extatic exitement, fellowship with the Lord is enjoyable. And it brings with it the capacity to "rejoice always" even in hard circomstances. It brings us into the enjoyment of the Reality of Christ which is God's goal. That we live by Him and express Him in all things and by this expression of His life within us God is glorified in our bodies whether by life or by death.

It is our enjoyment of Christ which issues in the Glory of God.

I like A.W. Tozer's word in "Why the Holy Spirit is given:

"The primary work of the Holy Spirit is to restore the lost soul to intimate fellowship with God through the washing of regeneration. To accomplish this, He first reveals Christ to the penitent heart (1 Cor 12:3) He then goes on to illunine the newborn soul with brighter rays from the face of Christ and leads the willing heart into depths and heights (hights- there is that word again -gb) of divine knowlege and communion. Rememember, we know Christ only as the Spirit enables us and we have only as much of Him as the Holy Spirit imparts."

A. W. Tozer - That Incredible Christian - Why the Holy Spirit is Given.

Christ is the most "enjoyable" Person. And being led into depths of divine knowlege and communion with Him is joy unspeakable and full of glory.

Christ makes Himself enjoyable to us to attract us and to lead us into communion and fellowship with Him (Song of Songs 1:4 "Draw me; we will run after you. The King has brought me into His chambers") But as we go on the Lord has to lead us out of seeking Him merely for our own satisfaction but as our love toward Him grows, to seek Him for His satisfaction.

Graftedbranch



 2005/12/1 11:10Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
""I believe brother Phillip is saying here that James was born of God but did not have the full revelation of all it implies. He is suggesting that Christ was in him but he did not see it clearly in the New Testament Light.""



Brothers' I wasn't aggreeing with brother Phillip's statement but rather I was clarifying what I believed he was trying to say.

Graftedbrancn

 2005/12/1 11:53Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: enjoyment of Christ

Who can deny that when we are with other believers, praying, singing hymns, and sharing and there is a sense of the Spirit and the Presence of God in our midst, it is enjoyable. We like being there. We don't want to leave. It is not an emotional feeling generated by repetitive choruses or by some sentimental music designed to play on our feelings, There is a genuine Sense of the Spirit and a conciousness of the Lord as we enjoy the Truths in His Word. There is a flow of Life.

I had two brothers stop by this morning and we got into some verses in Philippians, we sang a song of rejoiciong, we shared and prayed. It was very enjoyable and if possible we would have gone on all day but of course we can't. We have to live and work.

And who can deny that when we are fellowshipping with the Lord in His Word and we are concious of His speaking to us in a particular passage and in our spirit we have conciousness of His Presence, It is enjoyable. We enjoy the Lord in that verse. Something of Christ is opened up to us and something of Christ is imparted into us through that Word and we know it, we are conciouse of it and it is Reality to us.

We are fed, we are strengthened in our inner man by that Word. It is Life to us and we have light in the Word.

Who can deny that we may read a passage for many years even. But one day as we are considering it, it is opened up to us in a way that it never was before. The Spirit shows us something of Christ, we have revelation. It is satisfying. It is feeding us. And to eat is enjoyable and inwardly satisfying.


"I am the Bread of Life"

"He who eats Me shall live because of Me"

"he who drinks of the Water I shall give him shall by no means thirst again."

"out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of Living Water"

Graftedbranch

 2005/12/1 12:06Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Really want to beg off of this...

Of course all these things are true, the difference is in how it was being applied regarding the comparison shopping if I may put it so bluntly.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/12/1 15:34Profile





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