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Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
James was writing to a different context (his reference to synagogues makes that plain) but to judge James' own spiritual condition from the point of view of "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh" is totally unacceptable. To imply (edited from 'say') that James has 'little appreciation' 'of Christ, His Person and His work' is preposterous.



Brother,

I can't speak for the condition of James's heart. He regarded himself as a "Slave of Jesus Christ". But it is not arogance to recognize the contents of his writing and his emphasis, and compare it to the rest of the New Testament. That is what commentators do all the time.

The problem of reconciling James with say Galatians and Romans has existed in the church for centuries and book after book has been written on the subject. Law vs. Grace is not a new subject. And it generally boils down to Galatians vs. James. And the approach generally taken by evangelical Christians has been, "how can we interprete James in light of the clear presentations of the gospel and salvation by grace through faith alone which is in the rest of the New Testament and particularly the epistles of Paul. I did not originate the difficulty.

Neither is the science of determining cannonocity arogance but is the very dicipline which has brought us our cannon. The Church (as a whole)has always differed on its views regarding certian books and this is one of them. The great body of the New Testament is accepted and recognized without controversy.

This was Luther's conclusion and I don't believe arrogance is his charecteristic. He was bold and commited to the Lord and the truth. And He was commited to the authority of scripture and "Sola Scriptura" is of his origin.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/30 12:30Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Isn't this the wrong thread for debating the issue as of late (about the Book of James)? This thread was initially about "Once Saved/Always Saved."



Truth is One and you can't get into one aspect whithout touching on others. We can neatly divide things up into this or that theological catagory, but this is in reality a false distinction for the convienience of compartmentalizing truths to better get a hold of them.

The issue of OSAS has under its belt all the aspects relating to salvation, the place of works and the necessity of them and from what perspective.

It is probably a side issue but in my opinion it is not an unrelated issue.

I personally have no vendeta against the book of James. It was brought up by others and my comments are along these lines. It is in my bible (and yes it happens to be a Recovery Version).

And yes, I can testify that the more time I have spent in the epistles of Paul and enjoyed the Spirit's light in them the more I have come to see some of the lack in James. And in our experience of Christ we are not all at the same place. If we were there would be no room to grow in grace and in the knowlege of our Lord Jesus Christ. THe book of Hebrews is a book of "moving on from the elementary principles of the Word of God" to a higher revelation of Christ.

Paul in 1 corinthians said, "I could not speak to you as mature but as unto babes and you are able to recieve milk only and not solid food".

This is the path we are all on and many have insight and revelation that I don't have. And we need the whole body and the Lord's supply through the body to enjoy the fullness of Christ. And we all should recognise that in some there are three talents and others only one. And the three should not dispise the one talant members of the body and the one's should not dispise the three talant members. We all need each other's portion.

Martin Luther obviously had more light in the Scriptures than the whole of the Roman Catholic church in his age. That is why we are here today and not at Mass.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/30 12:46Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: A little more on Light

In the New Testament we have in terms of revelation primarily Peter, John, and Paul. There are things in each of them that are not found in the others to the same degree.

Johns emphasis is primarily on Christ as the embodiment of God and of the Divine Life and our fellowship in the Divine Life (very high revealtion).

Peter reveals to us that we are all Living stones, being built up into a holy priesthood... That is we are God's building. And that we are being made "partakers of the Divine Nature". In His epistles we also have much concerning fellowshipping with Christ in suffereings and persecutions and much practical teaching.

In Paul we have the highest revealtion of Christ and the Church. Only in Paul's epistles do we see Christ as the Head of the Body and the Church as the body of Christ. Paul also speaks of the church as God's building and also that we are being built up into a holy Temple, the dwelling place of God in spirit.

Surely these are high revelations. Christ as the Mystery of God and the Church as the Mystery of Christ.

If you want to see the nature and essence of the Church as the body of Christ you cannot go to James to find this. YOu can find nothing about the church in James. If you want to see the church as God's building, you cannot find it there. If you want to see that we are Partakers of the Divine Nature, you cannot find it in James. These are high revelations.

James simply applies the Mosaic Law in a very good and profound way. But in Paul's epistles He always begins with our union with Christ in spirit as the basis for our living a life which experesses God in a practical way. All of his exortations are based in our practical and organic union with Christ. This is a prime charecterist of all of Paul's epistles.

If you want the enjoyment and reality of "Christ in you, the hope of Glory" you must go to Paul's epistles, You cannot find this in James. If you want to know how to treat your neighbor, yes, it is in James. But it is also in Paul's epistles but it is based in our union with Christ, not the Mosaic Law.

James speaks of our faith in Christ and that is good and is indicitive of His faith in Christ and that He is genuine in His being a "slave of Jesus Christ" But a consideration of his epistle shows it to be very Jewish in intent and content and does not reflect the whole Revelation of the New Testament concering Jews and Gentiles and the elimination of the Distinction between the two in Christ.

Paul emphasised that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile but One New Man. A High revelation. But in James we see him speak to Jews as Jews (yet believers).

The book of Hebrews which I believe is Pauline in origin is also written to Jewish believers. But this book is written to Jewish believers regarding a specifec problem related to their being Jewish. That is that they were tempted to turn back to Judaism because of persecution and Paul writes to show the the seperiority of Christ over Judiaism.

It is not written to Jews as Jews but to Jews as believers to shephard them into the Revelation of Christ as the fulfillment of all the Old testament types, shadows and figures.

In the matter of Light, God chooses men. And he gives these men as gifts to the church to bring all into the full knowlege of Christ. It is not a matter of boasting or arrogance. It is our arrogance which refuses to see in others light that we may not possess. It is our pride and lack of humility which keeps us from recieving through others what we don't have (Ephesians 4:11,12)

It took a great deal of humility on the part of Peter, James and John to recive Paul and to recognize the Grace of God in Him. They could have said, "who is this man. He was not with us, He was not trained by the Lord for 3 years. He was not at the Cross as John was. Why would God choose him to bring in the hightest revealiton of Christ and the Church?"

"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of the gift of Christ".

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/30 14:04Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Why is it so hard for the church to rightly divide the Word? Jesus came in the flesh to the flesh son's of Israel. He presented Himself as the Messiah and the Son of God and also calling Himself God also, yet keeping His subordination to the Father's Will.

We must see that the Christ that Paul met on the road and blinded him, spoken to from Heaven direct by the Resurrected, Glorified, Lord Himself, Jesus Christ, and spoken to and directed, changed, and given the revelation that Christ Himself the Seed of the Father was now in Paul. At this time no other Person on this earth had this experience or knew this truth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, No One, no not any person at all had this revelation and no one else was given to preach this Gospel which Christ gave Paul permission to call it my Gospel as pertaining to Paul, which he said time after time that it was his Gospel, a new Gospel that no one else had know or knew at this time and place in the dispensation of God. He, Paul preached nothing except Christ and Him Crucified and want nothing except to know Him.

1Cr 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation [of the gospel] is committed unto me.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

James the 1/2 brother of Jesus Christ was the head of the Jewish, Jerusalem synagogue and was the Head of It. He did not have this revelation of Paul and no wonder he James was unable to see his own 1/2 brother born again in him. He, James preached the only truth he knew, the Law and Works, so no wonder his epistle would disagree with Paul's Gospel, which Paul calls the Mystery, Hidden from all and revealed by Christ to him and him alone. Show me where it was revealed to anyone besides Paul, You cannot.

We must rightly divide the Word of Truth, and see what Graftedbranch is speaking of. Peter learned this Gospel from Paul and said, it was, some things hard to understand. 2 Peter 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Peter understood this Gospel because of the Incorruptable Seed reference in 1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

James did not have this revelation. John did, he got it from Paul and the Holy Spirit also.

Rightly divide the Word and we will all come to the perfection in Christ. Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/11/30 14:50Profile
Graftedbranc
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 Re:

Very well put Phillip.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/30 15:03Profile
Warrior4Jah
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Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
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 Re:

Quote:
We must see that the Christ that Paul met on the road and blinded him, spoken to from Heaven direct by the Resurrected, Glorified, Lord Himself, Jesus Christ, and spoken to and directed, changed, and given the revelation that Christ Himself the Seed of the Father was now in Paul. At this time no other Person on this earth had this experience or knew this truth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, No One, no not any person at all had this revelation and no one else was given to preach this Gospel which Christ gave Paul permission to call it my Gospel as pertaining to Paul, which he said time after time that it was his Gospel, a new Gospel that no one else had know or knew at this time and place in the dispensation of God. He, Paul preached nothing except Christ and Him Crucified and want nothing except to know Him.



How about the other disciples of Christ then?
They where charged to go out and make all, His disciples and baptise them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. That before Paul even repented.

What truth did Paul know that nobody else knew?


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Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/11/30 15:04Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
What truth did Paul know that nobody else knew?



Well, read Paul's epistles and cataloge the things revealed in them that are not spoken of by the others in thier epistles. Those are the things He "brought to the table" so to speak.

And as good members of the body of Christ the others surely recieved Paul's revelation and entered into them to one degree or another. This is the principle of the Body. Not everyone is an eye, not everyone is a mouth, not everyone is a hand.

And remember James was written in AD 50, only 17 years after Christ's was resurrected and ascended. Paul's came in beginning at least 10 years later. And if Jame's revelation is "complete" why did we need the epistles of Paul? why not just send James to everyone?

Paul's epistles were circulated among the churches and became incorporated into the cannon of the New Testament. That is why we have them today.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/30 15:11Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
At this time no other Person on this earth had this experience or knew this truth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, No One, no not any person at all had this revelation and no one else was given to preach this Gospel which Christ gave Paul permission to call it my Gospel as pertaining to Paul, which he said time after time that it was his Gospel, a new Gospel that no one else had know or knew at this time and place in the dispensation of God. He, Paul preached nothing except Christ and Him Crucified and want nothing except to know Him.


Paul received a 'new gospel'!?! Thus is your folly manifest! John got the gospel from Paul!?! This is where hyper-dispensationalism leads us.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/11/30 15:19Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: High vs Low

I think some saints object to the use of the word High revelation because it imples that other things are "low".

You could use the words accuratly "full and complete", but this also implies other things are partially 'empty' or "incomplete".

High is a good word because when you come to Divine things, they are high and above us and only by the Grace of God and the revelation of the Spirit can we apprehend these things which "surpass knowlege".

It takes the whole revelation of the New Testament and all the epistles and the revealtion given through all His chosen apostles to have the full and complete revelation of Christ and each one has their portion and distinct angle and perspective.

And we also need the Light on the scriptures which has been handed down to us through the many gifts to the Church throughout the ages as well as the portions of the saints in the church that the body of Christ might build itself up in love through every joint of the rich supply and the measure of each one part.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/30 15:29Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

This is still absurd.

"Measuring themselves by themselves they are not wise" (My paraphrase)

Where did the idea come about of piting one book against another to "prove" something? My goodness you could set up a half a million constructs that could be extrapolated to "prove" whatever point you wish.

This isn't a Paul vs. Peter, Peter vs. James, rubbish! That the Protestant or the RC church or anybody for that matter misunderstands or is deriving the wrong intentions has no bearing on the validity .... goodness "[i]They twist the scriptures to their own[/i]..." that could be said of all the scriptures in that light.

The book of James is what, half a dozen pages and you are going to derive a whole theology of assumptions out of it...

Here is what is quite amazing over and over again, the main and plain things, the simplilst precepts and principles, just a plain wooden literal meaning is missed by a mile, while the extrapolations go on or off into a thousand other things.

Quote:
And yes, I can testify that the more time I have spent in the epistles of Paul and enjoyed the Spirit's light in them the more I have come to see some of the lack in James.


That is just an incredible statement. Wonder what James might think of the same in your words.

I don't know GB, controversial for controversy's sake?


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Mike Balog

 2005/11/30 15:41Profile





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