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crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Egads!

Quote:
If you study James you see he has a great appreciation for the Law but very little to say concerning Christ. When Paul came to Jeruselem James boasted and said to him, "see how many thousands are zelouse for the Law". He even compelled Paul to take the Vow, to shave his head and to offer sacrafices, But thank God in HIs Soverign arrangement, Paul was not allowed to continue but was arrested and brought out of that situation.

James is a good book. It is a mixture of the Old covenant rightousness and godlyness and the New Testament. It is akin to proverbs in it's content but as to its Christology and New Testament revelation of Christ and the Church and "Christ in you, the Hope of Glory" is is very defecient and lacking.



Came across this last night and... beyond the piercing and greviousness... this is absurd. I am all for scholarly education to a [i]point[/i] but sometimes these academic applications are appaling...

But thank you very much, I did go back and reread James again last night and this morning.

Which "law" was he appealing to? The law of [i]liberty[/i]? Make that ..."The [i][u]perfect[/u][/i] law of liberty" or is it the "Royal law";

Jam 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.

Little to say concerning Jesus? Are you kidding? How much of the Sermon on the Mount is expressed throughout all this? But that is hardly the point, I am just stupefied by these comments..."Lacking"? You are going to sit in judgment and call it a 'good book', but?"
This sounds like the same intimation about many other past saints that don't equal up to your particular assemesment...

"Christology"... Is this now a academic venture? Had heard this same usage elsewhere re: Witness Lees 'own' and I believe you stated it to be "impeccable". This is just utter nonsense. There is certainly deficiencies, not in James though and I will not stand here and judge you but the words that you state. Try and reread James without the preconceptions or maybe with this in mind:

Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.


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Mike Balog

 2005/11/30 9:56Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
The fact that Paul was chosen to record it does not mean that he was the only one who had it, nor does it mean that the revelation that others had was 'lower'. These are different gifts in the one body. And Galatians cannot say of James "I have no need of thee".



We cannot deny that the revelation of the New Testament was progressive from the start. Even after Pentecost, the Lord had to give Peter a vision of the sheet with the unclean animals to show that He had included the gentiles.

When Peter after preaching to the Gentiles and they also recieved the Spirit, he had to present the events to support the fact that the Gentiles were also included. The diciples even after 3 years training with the Lord Jesus in the flesh and even aftet the Spirit was poured out upon them at pentecost, were still not clear on the Gentiles.

When the Lord Jesus appeared to Paul He said to him that he would be His witness to those things in which He had appeared to him and also would appear to him showing that the Lord intended to give him a fuller and deeper revelation of Himself of which Paul was to be a witness.

Paul after 3 years finally went up to Jeruslem to present his gospel to Peter and the rest and recieved the right hand of fellowship. They added nothing to his gospel but only said, 'remember the poor". Yes they were in harmony but recognized the grace of God and the revelation Paul had recieved.

Peter in his episle also mentions Paul's letters and states that even he reconized them both as scritpure and also that many things in them were "hard to understand".

I also suggest that the Lord's soverign hand brought the distruction of the Temple and Jeruselem in 70AD thus finalizing the testimony that the Old covenent had ended and the New Covenent is in place "in His Blood". the "mixture" which was existing at that time was terminated.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/30 11:06Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Little to say concerning Jesus? Are you kidding? How much of the Sermon on the Mount is expressed throughout all this?



As was pointed out by Martin Luther in the passage quoted, Jesus is mentioned, but there is no reference to His death on the Cross, His resurrection, and our union in spirit through faith in Him. These things are absent in James. Yet they are the centerpiece of every other episle in the NT including Peter, John, Jude, and Paul.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and what is evident in the epistle of James ia a great appreciation for the Law but little of Christ, His Person, and His work.

James like proverbs is good practical advice on godly living, but the revelation of Christ as our redeemer, and our indwelling Life is not the heart, focus, or even the implied basis for his epistle.


In fact, James is not even addressed to the church and never mentions the body of Christ, It is addressed to "the twelve tribes in the dispersion."

And in James 2:1 he speaks of "For if there comes one into your synagog a man with gold...."

As stated before, it is the very first epistle written (Ad 50) IN fact I went through every epistle and took note of the dates of writting and it is the first. It is Jewish in its intent and in it's content.

We can all agree that "all scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine...etc" The only question here and which has existed in Church history is whether or not this book should be counted among the "apostolic scritpures'.

Martin Luther said no, based not on it's authorship but primarily based on it's content and the fact that it in many things squars against the rest of the New Testament. And it has been the source of much false teaching concerning works and salvation in both the Catholic church and protestantism.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/30 11:25Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
As was pointed out by Martin Luther in the passage quoted, Jesus is mentioned, but there is no reference to His death on the Cross, His resurrection, and our union in spirit through faith in Him. These things are absent in James. Yet they are the centerpiece of every other episle in the NT including Peter, John, Jude, and Paul.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and what is evident in the epistle of James ia a great appreciation for the Law but little of Christ, His Person, and His work.

Your response here is the kind that we have become used to hearing from bubbaguy our pseudo-Quaker. You are sitting in judgment on the book that judges you. It takes quite a bit to shock me these days but your arrogance in relegating James to some underclass of New Testament writers has succeeded.

It does seem to be that your embracing of the tenets of the Lord's Recovery displays or creates a disposition of superior judgment.

James was writing to a different context (his reference to synagogues makes that plain) but to judge James' own spiritual condition from the point of view of "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh" is totally unacceptable. To imply (edited from 'say') that James has 'little appreciation' 'of Christ, His Person and His work' is preposterous.

I am resisting the temptation to apply your own criteria to your own posts... just.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/11/30 11:35Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
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 Re:

Quote:
but there is no reference to His death on the Cross, His resurrection, and our union in spirit through faith in Him.



How does Philemon line up?


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Josh Parsley

 2005/11/30 11:41Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
When the Lord Jesus appeared to Paul He said to him that he would be His witness to those things in which He had appeared to him and also would appear to him showing that the Lord intended to give him a fuller and deeper revelation of Himself of which Paul was to be a witness.

I presume you have in mind the passage from the Acts:“But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.” (Acts 26:16-18, KJVS) Are you now saying that this was to be revelation 'subsequent to and superior to' that already received by the apostles? If so, this is hyper-dispensationalism.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/11/30 11:43Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4526


 Re:

Hello all...

Isn't this the wrong thread for debating the issue as of late (about the Book of James)? This thread was initially about "[i]Once Saved/Always Saved[/i]." I went back to the first thread where a person requested testimonies concerning why people have changed their position on the subject.

Perhaps this current debate (about James) could continue in a new thread? Just a thought...

:-)


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Christopher

 2005/11/30 12:09Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Sister Diane wrote;

Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean by this question. So can you help me out.



The Scriptures posted speak of a conditional response. The condition God establishes with men are the choice that He presents to men. All men are doomed because of the fall of Adam. God desires that all men come to repent and that they should not perish. So God makes known to lost man through the work of the Holy Spirit to reveal Christ to us. This is the condition. Each man has the choice to continue to live according to the carnal mind or to submit to the leading of the Holy Spirit. This is the condition which Paul speaks of in Romans 8:

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


This condition is not taught by the religion of men. God gives freely because God cannot lie. If He desires that all men come to repentance, if He in not willing that any should perish, then He must give freely the gift of the Holy Spirit. There is no other way. Yet what does Scripture say?

2Tim. 2:12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

Where ever one sees the word "if," choose to hear what the Scriptures say.

Yes the Word of God is a two-edged sword. And what is its purpose? To show each one of us how the Word becomes, " a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Those who are willing to recieve the Word of God and all that it reveals will be those who are willing to go onto maturity. "14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

God's word will destroy self-esteem and replace what is destroyed with the fountain of living water. It is this water that heals those who fret over whether they are saved or not. Only by the power of the Holy Spirit will one know Him who died and was resurrected. The joy of the Lord will wash away the enimity of the carnal mind.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/30 12:15Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Quote:
Isn't this the wrong thread for debating the issue as of late (about the Book of James)?



Do you see how men stumble, are we not like the Corinthian church?

1Cor. 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

1Cor. 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.


Are we of Luther, or maybe Wesley, or maybe Arminias, or maybe Calvin, or maybe Darby?

Few want to go where the Spirit will take them because they still require the milk of the Word.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/30 12:21Profile
jimbob
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Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

Ron,

Thanks much for the quote from Luther. I'm glad at least he had the good sense not to enforce his opinion about James on others, i.e. a "lutheran bible".

 2005/11/30 12:26Profile





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