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roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 check it out

Quote:
Wow 98 Posts and the only one I have read was the last post man are we Christians or Politicians hard to tell. By the way has anyone figured out if Once Saved Always Saved



Why not read and find out?

I was wondering why no one brought up Wesley and Whitefield - two outstanding Christian revival leaders who had opposite views on this issue. Yet God used them each mightily. Maybe there is somthing more to what view one holds.
Diane


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Diane

 2005/11/29 22:18Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
I just cannot believe that somebody could actually say this, this is garbage. There is a time for everything and now is the time to call this the poison that it is.



Brother,

I don't believe that an understanding and appreciation of the scriptures and the revelaiton of the new Testament and the "completion of the word of God through Paul is "poison" but rather Light.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/29 22:22Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3311
Texas

 Re: check it out

Way to much to read here Diane, but thanks anyway. ;-)


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Bill

 2005/11/29 22:23Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

calvin had no osas doctine. it is ' the eternal security of the believer'. faith is not just believing somethin. when you heard that Jesus died for your sins the first time did you immediately respond or did the Holy Spirit speak ' the word' to your heart , turning your heart of stone into a heart of flesh able to receive this word enough to repnd with a corresponding positive act. you, before the Holy Spirit moves in you, are or were an enemy of God with your rebellious fist in His face. pucture a drunk driving down the street, seeing a trooper, would he turn himself in or try to straighten up and lood real religeous. you have very little to do with your salvation in all three tenses. it is Gods covenant plan He sent Jesus to be both His represntative and ours to cut the covenant. Jesus is our advocate with the father aver the covenant and our judge. if you know the story of david and jonathan and their covenant together, you will clearly see that saul and jonathan died after battle and left jon's son, meph. as the heir to the throne. meph was brought out of ' harms way'from those wh figured that he was next to die and he feared and hated david until david proved the covenant by compelling him to come and be blessed. mercy, grace covenant. it had nothing to do with meph it was all david and honoring his cutting with jon. is there penalty for sin? your sin will find you out, for sure and you will pay for the sins of the flesh in the flesh severely. jimp

 2005/11/30 1:38Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote; Philologos

It seems you are following the line set down by such as J N Darby who created a canon within a canon on the basis of his dispensationalism. This kind of dispensationalism, also taught by E W Bullinger results in a canon in which Paul is the 'greatest' exponent of the true gospel while the other apostles and the church at Jerusalem failed in their mission. By this criteria John and Paul are the ultimate in spiritual truth. Is this your view?

I never heard of either of Them. Just Scripture Revealed by the Holy Spirit.

Not a view but a truth, Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

The Judgement Seat of Christ: According to the Gospel given Paul direct by Christ revelation.

The Power to establish you in Christ and make Him unto us Wisdom, Righteousness, Sanctification and Redemption. This is all the Wisdom of Christ, The Righteousness of Christ,
The Sanctification of Christ and the Redemption of Christ. Paul's power to Preach Jesus Christ and Him Crucified.

The Revelation of the Mystery of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, never before revealed to man.

In Paul's Gospel the Power of the Resurrection is revealed. Jesus Christ the seed of David, the promise, the first Fruits raised from the Dead unto eternal Life by Christ and in Christ.

John's Gospel should have been and Epistle, It was not the historical gospel's of Mathew, Mark, and Luke. The Gospel of John was a revelation of Who Christ was and is, not what He did. John also reveales The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit and Who They are and what Their Capacity and Work in the believer is distributed to make us son's of God prepared for the Father's House.

You cannot bring Israel into the Church, who the Rock is the Revelation of establishing The Church of Jesus Christ on Peter's answer, Thou art the Son of God in whom the Church will live and move and have its being, the Body of Christ, The Chief Corner Stone.

Paul did not preach this Gospel willingly, it was against his will and by this God might show the unceasing power of Christ in a man, Paul's Gospel. 1 Corinthians 9:16-18 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

This Gospel of Paul was the Final Gospel to reveal the Body of Christ only, Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Until this dispensation is finished the only thing we have to do with is the Body of Christ the Church and all else will come at its end in the resurrection of this Body of Christ the Church. Then Israel will return to her glory with Christ as King on the throne of David which was promised to Israel and Israel only.

Peter agrees because of Paul's teaching,

See the difference in Israel the rejecter's and the believers.

Israel;

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

Luk 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

The Body of Christ the Church:

Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];

1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

Acts 28:26-28 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

The Church the Body of Christ, which is referred to as "Gentiles", a specific time, and until it is come in, no Gentile or Jew, will hear this Gospel which Paul received direct from Jesus Christ Himself, that Gospel makes us one in Christ, a new race of creatures, Christ Ones, and no other race, color or creed. The Body of Christ the Church only.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/11/30 2:15Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I am not familiar with Darby's view or position. But it is without question that in Paul's epistles is the highest revelation of Christ and the Church. And in James we find very little of this "high revelation" but rather practical godlyness in a very "old testament" sense which is good but very insufficient.

This 'highest' concept puts me in mind of our other discussions on this site. You are doing exactly what Luther did in relegating James to a 'lower' level of inspiration. Luther rejected it as canonical because it did not square with his view of things. I fear you are in danger of doing the same.

Paul writes...“If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:” (Eph. 3:2-6, KJVS) which makes it plain that the 'revelation' was given to ALL those men whose ministry was foundational to the doctrine of the New Testament. The fact that Paul was chosen to record it does not mean that he was the only one who had it, nor does it mean that the revelation that others had was 'lower'. These are different gifts in the one body. And Galatians cannot say of James "I have no need of thee".

Peter is also frequently 'downgraded' by those who hold this 'canon within a canon' view of scripture, but this is because they have chosen to see Peter's letters in the light of them being to a Jewish audience. I would strongly disagree with that perspective.

This grading of inspiration and ministry seems to be a characteristic of your (the Lord's recovery) position. It is defective, in my judgement, and results in a distortion of truth and an implicit superiority.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/11/30 2:36Profile
Warrior4Jah
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Joined: 2005/7/5
Posts: 382
The Netherlands

 Re: check it out

Quote:

I was wondering why no one brought up Wesley and Whitefield - two outstanding Christian revival leaders who had opposite views on this issue. Yet God used them each mightily. Maybe there is somthing more to what view one holds.
Diane



Seem that nobody being reborn has an excuse to neglect to talk about repentance, sin, judgement, God's holiness and His perfect love! No matter what view you hold.

If osas leads you to water down the gospel you would be going wrong I think.
If you don't believe in osas and you water down the gospel you would still be wrong. :-)

We don't have to promote osas or the opposite I think. If we use Gods Word and tell them the words Jesus said, including all these warnings people can examine theirselves if they are in the faith.

Or am I thinking to simple now?


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Jonathan Veldhuis

 2005/11/30 4:40Profile
jimbob
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Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

Ron,

Please provide a quote from Luther to prove your statement that he "rejected (the book of james) as canonical"

 2005/11/30 5:19Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Please provide a quote from Luther to prove your statement that he "rejected (the book of james) as canonical"


The following is the translation from Luthers Works, vol. 35. pages 395-398.

Preface to James and Jude.

I think highly of the epistle of James, and regard it as valuable although it was rejected in early days. It does not expound human doctrines, but lays much emphasis on God's law. [u]Yet to give my own opinion without prejudice to that of anyone else, I do not hold it to be of apostolic authorship[/u], for the following reasons:

Firstly, because, in direct opposition to St. Paul and all the rest of the Bible, it ascribes justification to works, and declares that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered up his son. St. Paul, on the contrary, in Romans 4[:3], teaches that Abraham was justified without works, by his faith alone, the proof being in Genesis 15 [:6], which was before he sacrificed his son. Although it would be possible to 'save' the epistle by a gloss giving a correct explanation of justification here ascribed to works, it is impossible to deny that it does refer to Moses's word in Genesis 15 (which speaks not of Abraham's works but of his faith, just as Paul makes plain in Romans 4) to Abraham's works. This defect proves that the epistle is not of apostolic provenance.

Secondly, because, in the whole length of its teaching, not once does it give Christians any instruction or reminder of the passion, resurrection, or spirit of Christ. It mentions Christ once and again, but teaches nothing about Him; it speaks only of a commonplace faith in God. It is the office of a true apostle to preach the passion and resurrection and work of Christ, and to lay down the true ground for this faith, as Christ himself says in John 15 [:27], You shall be my witnesses. All genuinely sacred books are unanimous here, and all preach Christ emphatically. The true touchstone for testing every book is to discover whether it emphasizes the prominence of Christ or not. All Scripture sets forth Christ, Romans 3::24 f.] and Paul will know nothing but Christ, 1 Corinthians 2 [:2]. What does not teach Christ is not apostolic, not even if taught by Peter or Paul. On the other hand, what does preach Christ is apostolic, even if Judas, Annas, Pilate or Herod does it.

The epistle of James, however, only drives you to the law, and its works. He mixes one thing with another to such an extent that I suspect some good and pious man assembled a few things said by disciples of the apostles, and then put them down in black and white; or perhaps the epistle was written by someone else who made notes of a sermon of his. He calls the law a law of freedom, although St. Paul calls it a law of slavery, wrath, death, and sin. Yet he quotes St. Peter's saying that "Love covers a multitude of sins", and again "Humble yourselves under the hand of God"; further, St. Paul's word in Galatians 5, The spirit lusteth against hate. But St. James was killed by Herod in Jerusalem before St. Peter's death, which shows the writer to have been far later than St. Peter or St. Paul.

In sum: he wished to guard against those who depended on faith without going on to works, but he had neither the spirit nor the thought nor the eloquence equal to the task. He does violence to Scripture, and so contradicts Paul and all Scripture. He tries to accomplish by emphasizing law what the apostles bring about by attracting men to love. [u]I therefore refuse him a place among the writers of the true canon of my bible[/u]; but I would not prevent anyone placing him or raising him where he likes, for the epistle contains many excellent passages. One man does not count as a man even in the eyes of the world; how then shall this single and isolated writer count against Paul and all the rest of the Bible
it is interesting too that Luther thought the writer was claiming to be James the brother of John, rather than James the half brother of Christ.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/11/30 5:47Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Here, Here!

An Epistle of straw? :-?

No, an Epistle of God. 8-)


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Mark Nash

 2005/11/30 7:44Profile





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