My own experience is that I had begun as a Christian like a house on fire, and like most I was arminian in my thinking, I thought that I had come to Christ and that I had to maintain my standing in faith (there are after all several verses in the bible that imply that).
After several years of intense bible study and searching for truth I came to the conclusion that the Bible was contradictory and powerless to change me. I fell away hard.
After seven years of living a very un-Christian life, I was "spoken to" in the very center of my being. It was a clear voice, not my own, and He said to me "There's a better way".
I've had my eye's opened to the truth found in John 6:37-39 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out....This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day,"
The Father gave ME to the Son before the foundation of the earth (Eph. 1:4) and the Son will not lose me. This is Gods' plan, all I do is rest in that plan. You might think this is too simple!!! Once I entered into His rest I had victory over the sins that used to dog me when, in my arminian mind set I used to struggle in my flesh to do what He had already done for me on the cross.
Does this mean I have arrived? No, I have just begun. I feel sorry for those who believe they must do something to maintain a gift that was freely given, and pray that the eyes of our understanding would be opened to see ALL that the Father has for those whom he has called.
| 2005/11/17 22:11||Profile|
I want to get back to this, but here is a favorite verse of mine - Matthew 10:22 - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
| 2005/11/17 23:03||Profile|
Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada
repentCanada - amen to that.
Only those who persevere are genuinely saved. Those who do not persevere (that is, those who go out from us) demonstrate that they are not saved (because they are not of us). Had they persevered (That is, if they remain amongst us), they would have demonstrated the genuine nature of the salvation - but anyone who can deny God doesn't have God's spirit - and never had God's Spirit.
Only those with God's Spirit will endure.
Daniel van de Laar
| 2005/11/18 9:10||Profile|
When I was a very young Christian I was praying about whether OSAS is true. I felt the Lord speak to me and ask, "In the end, [u]where[/u] are you saved from?" I said, "Hell." "When is it possible that you can go there?" I said," After I die?" "You must endure to the end."
I don't think at all its debatable about the one who says," I've prayed a prayer and now I can do what ever because my flesh is weak and I live by faith." That person is going to Hell. It's a damnable heresy. Now the one who says, "I am once saved always saved. Look at my fruits. I strive to live a holy life before God. And God will not let me fall." Although I believe that you can "fall away", I would not take much or any time discussing it with them, unless of course they specifically asked. The first one on the other hand, I would do anything possible that they might see truth.
A holy life is what is demanded, whether you believe that you can live unholy after you have came to the Holy One, or not.
| 2005/11/18 9:45||Profile|
Where does this fit into the equation:
I will heal their backsliding,
I will love them freely,
For My anger has turned away from him.
| 2005/11/18 9:56||Profile|
Where does this fit into the equation:
Perfectly! Right with these.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
| 2005/11/18 10:22||Profile|
Now the one who says, "I am once saved always saved. Look at my fruits. I strive to live a holy life before God. And God will not let me fall." Although I believe that you can "fall away", I would not take much or any time discussing it with them, unless of course they specifically asked.
You know, I believe we always look at the question from the wrong point of view. That is our performance, what is requried of us, etc. But we should step back and look at salvation from God's point of view and what it entails.
To be saved is to be regenerated. That is through calling on the Lord Jesus Christ who died for us and resurrected, we believe into HIm and we are made alive in our spirit. Our spirit which is dead by nature is resurrected and indwelt by the Living resurrected Christ as the Life Giving Spirit.
Can this be undone? No. Paul says, "the Spirit HImself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God and if children, heir also. Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ if so be that we suffer with Him.
To be regenerated is to have God's life within us. It is to be born of God and to recive HIs very life and nature. That makes us heirs of God through birth.
The Apsotle John says in 1 John 5: God has given us Eternal Life, this Life is in His Son, He who has the Son has the Life. He who does not have the Son of God does not have the Life."
Eternal Life is not a place, a state, or a condition. Eternal Life is the Life of God which is in Christ and which we recive into us when we beieve into Him (John 3:16).Eternal Life is the Life of God which is Eternal in nature.
On the Other hand, to be "joint heirs with Christ' requries us to "suffer with Him that we also might be glorified together with Him.
To be born of God and to recieve His eternal Life only requires us to repent and believe into the Lord Jesus Christ and be born of God.
But to be a joint heir with Christ in His Kingdom requires us to grow in Life, to mature, to suffer with Him and to be faithful. The Kingdom is a reward, but Eternal Life is the Gift of God which we do not earn by our works or by our this or that. We are born of God and have His life and therefore members of His household. It is not based in our performance.
Having said that, if we are Born of God, it will bear fruit. We have HIs life within us and He has predestinated us to be conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the First Born among many brothers." God who has redeemed us, justified us, regenerated us, and is commited to sanctifying us will obtain what He has begun in us one way or another.
If the scritpures are studied carefully, it will be seen that every reference to enduring and finishing our course and obtaining the "out resurrection of the dead, which are all conditional are always related to the reward of the Kingdom, not eternal Life. The Kingdom preceeds the New Jeruselem which is the consumation of the Bible and the eternal state of the redeemed, regenerated, sanctified, transformed, conformed, and transfigured believers.
But the Kingdom and reigning with Christ for 1000 years is a reward to those who overcome and to those who are not slothful but are faithful servants who love HIm and suffer with Him, who deny themselves, take their cross and follow Him.
| 2005/11/18 16:22||Profile|
| 2005/11/18 19:10||Profile|
I used to lean a little towards both sides of the eternal security debate as a began to grow as a new born Christian. I think that the parable of the sower explains it all.
In this line of thinking, those who are in good ground, and those in the thorny are both saved. One serves heartily, the other has as Alan Redpath put it, "a saved soul and a wasted life."
The stony ground hearer is the one that shows outward evidence of salvation, but was never truly saved. The last type heard the Word but wanted no part of it.
I don't see that God would save someone, and then unsave them. So I think this is the reason for all of the verses that speak of eternal security:
John 10:28 "...they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
Rom 8:35 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?"
1 John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life."
Now in the same breath, I think the average person who says, "I'm saved," is not. Someone told them they were saved, or they were lead in a prayer, or maybe they just made their mind up they were to make others leave them alone. I told someone I was saved when I was young to make a guy leave me alone.
After I was converted, I spent quite a while in distress not knowing if it was genuine. So while I don't think God 'unsaves' people, I think their are many who say they are, but know something is wrong, and really don't want to dig into the Word or talk with people about it, becuase they know that their true state will be exposed.
Have I ever doubted my salvation? Yes. Because of how often I saw myself letting Christ down. How do I know I was saved? Because I was so convicted. And I still am whenever I ignore the Holy Spirit.
The only way to have a good guess whether or not someone is saved is to spend much time with them, and even then they can fool you. The issue I bring forward is that just because someone shows some progress like: going to church, prayer, reading Scripture, etc, this does not mean they are saved.
So my argument would be that just because we see people 'fall away', we cannot conclude that they lost their salvation. I say they were never cleansed with living water, they merely tasted the water. They hung around with the Holy Spirit for a while, and didn't like the idea of taking up a cross. These are the type that ring out with "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED." While I believe that statement, I don't find it anywhere in Scripture, nor do I think it does good from the pulpit. Just as "Jesus loves you" is true, but ineffective and incomplete as an evangelistic tool.
There are multitudes of unsaved people who pass as saved, and multitudes of converted people that are very worldly. I don't sweat it as that will all be taken care of at the Judgment. Let's just make sure we will be able to stand on the day.
2 Pet 1:10 "..make your calling and election sure.."
| 2005/11/18 20:58||Profile|
| Re: Check the context before forming a doctrine!!|
"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries" Hebrews 10:26-27
I believe this verse completely shoots down OSAS.
Wow! Be careful to check the context! The writer is talking about the Israelites who had it all: the cloud, the pillar of fire, the laws, the Spirit of Christ in the desert, the manna,etc and YET they REFUSED. What else would save them? Nothing!! God gave them every chance. And so they were CUT OFF, like a branch, cut from the vine - as a nation/people group/.
I think we have to distinguish between people groups and individuals. There will always be individuals who turn to the Lord, even if the goup they are a part of refuses as a whole, and even if God's judgment fall on them.
Today we have it all - all that we need, and yet many REFUSE. They may look saved, act saved, but that doesn't mean that they have really ever ENTERED HIS REST.
This debate goes on forever I think because of our weak understanding of salvation.
When God saves someone he rescues them from themselves. Self is crucified. They become new creations. And if they are truely God's children, then he DISCIPLINES them to refine them. If he didn't NO ONE could hold on to their own salvation.
Some questions: Does salvation depend on God or man? What is man's responsibility, and what is God's responsibility? There is much yet to think about before we can come to terms with this debate.
Maybe we are often asking the wrong questions.
| 2005/11/19 8:22||Profile|