| Poster | Thread | rookie
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Savannah TN
| | Re: | | Sister Anne asked:
Quote:
In this quote from you: "I agree with you, Proverbs 8 and Wisdom is the personification of the Holy Spirit and not Jesus."
This was written Pre-Incarnation, so are we not "splitting" Elohim, Who operated as ONE God, by saying what you've said above ?
First, I need to be more clear as to what I was speaking of in Proverbs 1-8 and especially 8.
Genesis 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
I believe the woman here in Genesis speaks of the Holy Spirit's work in those who she births. The outcome or the essence of her work conforms the child into the Seed, who is Jesus Christ. This work has been predestined...
Romans 8:
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
So in Proverbs, we see that Solomon is teaching the same precept. The woman here speaks...
Proverbs 1
2 To know wisdom and instruction,
To perceive the words of understanding,
3 To receive the instruction of wisdom,
Justice, judgment, and equity;
4 To give prudence to the simple,
To the young man knowledge and discretion
5 A wise man will hear and increase learning,
And a man of understanding will attain wise counsel,
6 To understand a proverb and an enigma,
The words of the wise and their riddles.
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
But fools despise wisdom and instruction.
8 My son, hear the instruction of your father,
And do not forsake the law of your mother;
It is by means of the Holy Spirit that God speaks...It is by the means of the Holy Spirit that one is birthed by God.
What is it that saves an individual...
Proverbs 2:
1 My son, if you receive my words,
And treasure my commands within you,
2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom,
And apply your heart to understanding;
3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment,
And lift up your voice for understanding,
4 If you seek her as silver,
And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will understand the fear of the LORD,
And find the knowledge of God.
6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 He guards the paths of justice,
And preserves the way of His saints.
9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice,
Equity and every good path.
10 When wisdom enters your heart,
And knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
11 Discretion will preserve you;
Understanding will keep you,
Wisdom and knowledge of who? Who only is the King of Righteousness? Who only is the King of Peace? It is Christ.
All wisdom, all knowledge of Christ is given to us by the Holy Spirit birthing in us the things of Christ. The Seed of the woman reveals Spirit of Christ in us.
Isaiah 28:
7 But they also have erred through wine,
And through intoxicating drink are out of the way;
The priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink,
They are swallowed up by wine,
They are out of the way through intoxicating drink;
They err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8 For all tables are full of vomit and filth;
No place is clean.
9 Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little.
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue
He will speak to this people,
12 To whom He said, This is the rest with which
You may cause the weary to rest,
And, This is the refreshing;
Yet they would not hear.
These people spoken of in Isaiah,
9 Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just drawn from the breasts?
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little.
Those just weaned from milk, those just drawn from the breasts, speaks of a people who have witnessed the Word through the Holy Spirit, they are simple in their understanding. Just like those Solomon teaches about in Proverbs 1-8
Proverb 8
1 Does not wisdom cry out,
And understanding lift up her voice?
2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
Beside the way, where the paths meet.
3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,
At the entrance of the doors:
4 To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.
5 O you simple ones, understand prudence,
And you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 Listen, for I will speak of excellent things,
And from the opening of my lips will come right things;
This is the Holy Spirit's work. "Listen, for I will speak of excellent things...
32 Now therefore, listen to me, my children,
For blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise,
And do not disdain it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life,
And obtains favor from the LORD;
"For whoever finds me finds life....
And obtains favor from the LORD....
Prov. 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Hos. 11:12 Ephraim has encircled Me with lies,
And the house of Israel with deceit;
But Judah still walks with God,
Even with the Holy One who is faithful.
Mark 1:24 saying, Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You arethe Holy One of God!
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
Acts 2:27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
1John 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
Jer. 23:5 Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD,
That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Jer. 33:15 In those days and at that time
I will cause to grow up to David
A Branch of righteousness;
He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
16 In those days Judah will be saved,
And Jerusalem will dwell safely.
And this is the name by which she will be called:
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Our High Priest according to the Order of Melchizedeck has always been the mediator between the Father and the sons of men.
In Christ
Jeff
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Jeff Marshalek
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|  2006/4/11 14:51 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Hi brother Jeff,
I still question though this quote below from your other post and wherever it's addressed in this post....
Quote:
"Proverbs 8 and Wisdom is the personification of the Holy Spirit and not Jesus."
Speaking of the operation of the "HOLY Spirit" in the Old Testament, it is written ....
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the [b]Spirit of Christ[/b] which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
So I'm still fearing we are "splitting up" the One True God, Elohim by saying that it was the Holy Spirit -- that you call "she" - right ? --- and not seeing that He is and always will be ONE God. The HOLY Spirit being called The Spirit of God and Christ.
Can you see why I'm questioning the above quote ?
Thanks brother, and not meaning to wrangle here.
In Him and His Shalom.
Annie
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| | 2006/4/11 15:09 | | rookie
Member
Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN
| | Re: | | Sister Annie wrote:
Quote:
So I'm still fearing we are "splitting up" the One True God, Elohim by saying that it was the Holy Spirit -- that you call "she" - right ? --- and not seeing that He is and always will be ONE God. The HOLY Spirit being called The Spirit of God and Christ.
Paul in his letter to the Galatians writes:
26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:
Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.
Gal. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
Who is the woman that both Isaac and us are born of?
In Christ
Jeff
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Jeff Marshalek
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| | 2006/4/11 19:28 | Profile |
| | Re: | |
26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
I just took this out of your post brother Jeff.
But this woman, as seen also in Revelations, is not the "she" in Prv. 8.
See, that's my question.
I'm seeing GOD as One and the same GOD Who called Himself a mother hen who desired His chicks to come under HIS wing.
Thanks brother.
Annie
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| | 2006/4/11 20:18 | | beenblake
Member
Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA
| | Re: | | Dear Annie,
The long pages of discussion that have proceeded has been over this very topic of the oneness of God. I do not think anyone here would disagree concerning the oneness of God, in that, God is completely unified in measure beyond human understanding.
Brother Jeff, in addition to those who have adopted the doctrine of the trinity (not to say brother Jeff has adopted the trinity), are not trying to divide God into parts, but rather they are embracing the uniqueness of three intimate "persons" in the "godhead."
As such, they believe that God is three persons united into one, a tri-unity. These three are individable, meaning that God is not able to be divided into three. God is one. And yet, there are distinctions to three that establish an important unity that speaks to the greatness of God.
As far as the discussion has proceeded, no one who believes in the doctrine of the trinity has been able to explain how God is three in one. As such, this is called the mystery of the trinity. They know God is one, and this is important. They also know the bible speaks about three different "persons" (this is an essential word to the doctrine of the trinity). There is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. As such, each of these persons are unique and are not the other. However, they are one, and thus form the "godhead."
Basically, to say it in simple terms, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. However, the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit. People are quick to point out that if you say Jesus is the Father, then it means the Father died on the cross. How can that be?
Jeff, in the above, was trying to establish that Proverbs 8 was speaking to the person of the Holy Spirit and not the person of the Son. Others have said that Proverbs 8 is speaking to the Son, who is the Logos, or the Word of God. I do not think Jeff was trying to divide God into three parts. He was just trying to establish the uniqueness of one. (Correct me if I am wrong Jeff.)
In the discussion, if you read through all the layers of posts in this thread, you will discover a large debate over the Trinity where this very topic has been discussed. How is it that God is one and yet He is three? Is God three persons in one? Or is God one?
I think just about every viewpoint on this topic in history has been mentioned and debated.
I hope this helps some,
In love and In Christ,
Blake
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Blake Kidney
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| | 2006/4/11 22:44 | Profile | Christinyou
Member
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Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | Quote:
"First, who sent Melchizedeck to Abraham?"
Why are we even considering Melchizedeck or Abraham. They have nothing to do with the Christ that is in us and the Body of Christ His Church.
We are not Israel, we have nothing to do with Israel. We were crucified with Christ and it is no longer we who live but Christ who live in us.
Melchizedeck may have been Christ, but not the Christ born of Mary, Fathered by God our Father whom Jesus made Clear that He is His Father and our Father. Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
This is a New Gospel, that Abraham did not have and we are not to deal with any other Gospel other than the One Paul has brought to us.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Only David is mentioned showing completeness in the Gospel of Jesus Christ by Paul to us. We will not be ruled by Jesus Christ from the throne of David, Israel will and over all Gentile Nations of the World in the millennial Kingdom from the New Jerusalem on this earth. All Christians are to be with Christ. 2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Cr 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
Galatians 1:6-12 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Moses' Gospel is not our Gospel.
By the Power of the Holy Spirit, God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ in all Those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, saved and going to the Father House which Christ is preparing for us that believe.
Matthew 16:15-18 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
The Rock is the revelation that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that is what Jesus Christ will build His Church on, the Revelation given to Paul of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
In Christ: Phillip
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Phillip
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| | 2006/4/11 23:38 | Profile | rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN
| | Re: | | Sis wrote:
Quote:
But this woman, as seen also in Revelations, is not the "she" in Prv. 8.
There is something that one must come to understand before one can see the woman in Revelation, the woman in Galatians, and the woman in Genesis, and finally the woman in Proverbs, is the same. As Paul teaches about this woman, he says...
24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Paul states that these things are symbolic...
To understand more fully have you considered this Scripture...
Isaiah 7
Is. 7:10 Moreover the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying, 11 Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above.
Is. 7:12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!
Is. 7:13 Then he said, Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. 15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.
Now we know that part of this Scripture is used to describe the birth of Jesus. Yet what does verse 15 and 16 mean to King Ahaz?
In Christ
Jeff
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Jeff Marshalek
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| | 2006/4/12 9:21 | Profile | rookie
Member
Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN
| | Re: | | Brother Blake wrote:
Quote:
Brother Jeff, in addition to those who have adopted the doctrine of the trinity (not to say brother Jeff has adopted the trinity), are not trying to divide God into parts, but rather they are embracing the uniqueness of three intimate "persons" in the "godhead."
As Sister Annie wrote in another thread, one must read and meditate on the "whole counsel of God." One must read the Scriptures without fear of men. I myself have not come to any conclusions as to what I believe about the doctrine of the trinity or the understanding that you put forth here.
Quote:
I do not think Jeff was trying to divide God into three parts. He was just trying to establish the uniqueness of one. (Correct me if I am wrong Jeff.)
I just have never thought about what I believe in the frame work of this discussion. I only teach about what I myself have come to understand based on my relationship with my Lord. As Sister Annie wrote about the search for the truth in Scripture, this endeavor will take the rest of my life.
Line upon line, precept upon precept, here alittle there alittle. I don't know when "alittle" will come.
In Christ
Jeff
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Jeff Marshalek
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| | 2006/4/12 9:33 | Profile | rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN
| | Re: | | Brother Phillip wrote:
Quote:
Why are we even considering Melchizedeck or Abraham. They have nothing to do with the Christ that is in us and the Body of Christ His Church.
Why did Paul teach about the New Covenant starting with Abraham and not with Pentecost.
Quote:
The Rock is the revelation that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that is what Jesus Christ will build His Church on, the Revelation given to Paul of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
This Rock Paul taught about in 1 Corinthians 10
3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
There are many things which Paul taught about that are difficult to understand... this is just one of them.
Keep on keepin on Brother Phillip...
In Christ
Jeff
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Jeff Marshalek
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| | 2006/4/12 9:37 | Profile | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | Quote:
"Why did Paul teach about the New Covenant starting with Abraham and not with Pentecost?"
The New Covenant in Christ did not start with Abraham or at Pentecost. The New Covenant in Christ started with Christ, and He is the barer of this New Covenant. Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
This has nothing to do with The Promises God made to Israel through Abraham, All the promises to Abraham will be fulfilled, but not in the dispensation of Grace by Jesus Christ.
This is not an earthly promise to Abraham or Israel but a complete different Covenant in Christ Jesus, who shed His Blood for that Covenant. 2 Corinthians 5:16-21 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
This is directed to Christ Ones, not to Israel. There is neither Jew or Gentile, person or Nation, or any other principality or power that can overcome this new Covenant. This is not the promises made to Abraham. Romans 8:34-39 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
We have one Priest and we are His priests', So much more that was promised to Abraham in the flesh. Hebrews 7:20-28 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, (because of The High Priest Jesus Christ that is In us) who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: FOR THIS HE DID ONCE, when he offered up Himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
WHO MAKETH US SONS'. Birthed son's of God, not promised sons' of Abraham. Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
This is a must not a promise to Abraham.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
This is the mighty rushing wind that came at Pentecost, The Birth of the Body of Christ being Born Again in us and the Cloven Tongues of Fire the evidence of The Spirit of Christ being Born Again in the believer and then also, Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. The Pureness of speaking the language of the New Covenant of Christ by the power of The Holy Spirit. Which they did not understand and God sent Paul to bring the pureness of Christ in you the Hope of Glory to light. Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. How are we judged?
In Christ: Phillip
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Phillip
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| | 2006/4/14 2:59 | Profile |
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