| Poster | Thread | beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA
| | Re: | | Dear Phillip,
I do not deny that there exists a mysterious trinity within God. Simply, it is this: God, God's Word, and God's Spirit.
However, Orthodox Trinity claims that God is "three persons in one substance." Do you believe this?
If what you say is true: you are indeed "Body, Soul and Spirit," a trinity, then would it be correct for me to say that you are three persons in one?
This is where I find error. God is not three persons, He is one person, just as you are one person.
In love,
Blake
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Blake Kidney
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|  2005/11/21 15:53 | Profile | InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2814
Phoenix, Arizona USA
| | Re: | | Quote:
It must be, or else you are speaking of more than one God. Is God one or is He three? You cannot say God is one and three. How does that make sense? There is either one God, or three Gods. There is either one person or three persons. Do you know anyone who is three persons in one person?
I think you need to have a clear understanding of the orthodox definition of Trinity before you can say it is contradictory or that it doesn't fit Scripture.
The definition of the Trinity is this: there is one God, [b]one Being[/b] who is God and only God; yet that one God has [b]three different Persons[/b], separate personas , the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son is referred to as the Word in John 1. That's our view. Our view is not that the Father is the same as the Son. Our view is that the Father is not the Son. Our view is that the Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son. But that all are equally God. They possess everything that makes God God. They have God's nature and can be called God, yet there is only one God.
Now you say that doesn't make sense. What do you mean by "make sense"? Do you mean it's irrational? There is nothing contradictory by the laws of reason in the Trinity. Absolutely not. Now it may not make sense because you have a hard time picturing this. Can you picture what love looks like or what justice looks like? No, yet you probably have good reason to believe love and justice are real. Love and justice may manisfest themselves in actions that can be seen but they are not physical in themselves and indeed no accurate physical "sense" of them can even be imagined.
It's not a liability that you can't picture the Trinity. It's not "sensible" in that way. But this tells you nothing about the truth of the doctrine. That question is answered by a different means: Does God’s own self-revelation give us reason to believe that the doctrine of the Trinity, classically understood, is an accurate and true description, as far as it goes, of God’s nature? The answer to that is clearly yes.
In Christ,
Ron
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Ron Halverson
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| | 2005/11/21 16:52 | Profile | philologos
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Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
I am three parts, Body, Soul, and Spirit, yet I am one. God is three parts, yet one.
No! God is not made up of 'parts'.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/11/21 17:19 | Profile | Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | I am three parts, Body, Soul, and Spirit, yet I am one. God is three parts, yet one.
If you like, God is three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, yet one. These are the parts of God I was referring to. If you don't like the word part then lets make it, God is three reflections of Himself manifest as the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, that our finite minds might understand what God is saying. God must start with what He has, we are finite and He is infinite and the Transition must be for us to become infinite as He is. Christ in you, The Holy Spirit also in you as the revealer of the Christ that is in us, these are the infinite manifestations of The God Head.
Act 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto Me; Him shall ye hear.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Then on resurrection morning the completion of the infinite. Notice we are already son's of God, spirit and soul.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
In Christ: Phillip
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Phillip
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| | 2005/11/21 20:26 | Profile | Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | Gentleman,
God does not lie, and He says He is One God. I am not separating God, or making Him three Gods. I am simply saying God reveals Himself in us as three distinct operations of One God. If Jesus Christ is now my spirit, then He will never leave me. If the Holy Spirit is now my Comforter and Teacher and the Power and Revealer of this knowledge. If I now have a Father who birthed me, why is it so hard to believe that this still is one God. You must admit God can manifest Himself as it pleases Him, not to please our finite minds, but this is where He has chosen to allow us to KNOW Who and What He has done and is doing. He is making us son's of the One and only God that we have anything to do with. How can the son say why did you make me this way, not my will but your's be done in me as it pleases Him.
In Christ: Phillip
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Phillip
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| | 2005/11/21 21:00 | Profile | crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: A different approach, perhaps | | "The counsel of Ron's" (We haven't used that in awhile) Thank you both. Quote:
Can you picture what love looks like or what justice looks like? No, yet you probably have good reason to believe love and justice are real. Love and justice may manifest themselves in actions that can be seen but they are not physical in themselves and indeed no accurate physical "sense" of them can even be imagined.
Well said, another, simililar...
[i]Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[/i]
The only suggestion that I could make here is to read and muse long in the book of John. It's been close to eight years now and am still just amazed... It seems to be a constant drawing back to. The reason for the mention here is that the Trinity will make more sense when you stop trying to 'figure it out' and is absorbed more than ... sought. And still will be a great wonder and awe, as it ought to be and is.
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Mike Balog
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| | 2005/11/21 23:46 | Profile | RobertW
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Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Hi Christinyou,
Quote:
Christ in you, The Holy Spirit also in you as the revealer of the Christ that is in us, these are the infinite [u]manifestations[/u] of The God Head.
Your use of 'parts' and 'manifestations' lends to a modalist view of God. Traditional orthodox Christianity views God as a Trinity, God in three [u]persons[/u]. Manifestations of God lend also to the belief that God the Father [u]became[/u] God the Son [u]became[/u] God the Holy Spirit. This is not the Trinitarian view. God simultaneously exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (3 persons 1 substance).
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2005/11/22 9:43 | Profile | beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA
| | Re: | | Dear Ron,
Quote:
The definition of the Trinity is this: there is one God, one Being who is God and only God; yet that one God has three different Persons, separate personas, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I plead with you to read my other posts. If you say that God is three seperate personas, then you are claiming Modalism. That is not Orthodox Trinity.
I will say this again, as I have countless times. There are two different perspectives that arose in the early Church as to what the definition of the "person" actually means. One definition held that God is three personas or three faces or three modes. This is Modalism and it was rejected by the early Church as heresy. The other definition held that God is three individuals, three selves, three consciousnesses. This is Orthodox Trinity.
The definition of an individual as recognized by the early Church fathers is simply, "in-divide-able." It is the smallest part by which something can be divided. A person is an individual substance.
Therefore, if you say God is three persons, then you are saying one of two things, depending on what you believe:
1) God is one being with three faces. He is one God with three personas. God is one substance, with three identities. Basically, God chooses to present Himself in three different modes depending on the situation. However, God cannot be both the Father and the Son at the same time. He is either one or the other.
2) God is one being and three persons. How this is possible, I do not know. However, this says that each identity in the trinity is an individual person. The son is not the Father. The Holy Spirit is not the Son. However, the son is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Each has an individual consciousness, an individual will, and an individual self.
I reject both of these theories. The first strips Jesus Christ of the person of God. It says that God has three personas. God has one person and one nature and one identity. God is always the same. He never changes. God is good. God is love. These are His person and His nature. God is God. God did not come to earth and put on human flesh as a persona. The bible says that Jesus represents God exactly in every way. Jesus is the person of God.
Jesus is the truth. He is not just one persona of God. Truth is one. It doesn't wear masks. Jesus is the truth.
The second theories divides God into parts. It seperates Him into individuals substances. It says God has three minds and three wills. I cannot believe anyone would say God has three wills, but this is what it says. God has one nature and one will. His will is Holy and supreme. Sin is the defiance of God's will. Jesus was without sin. He was Holy. Jesus could only be Holy if He was God. Only God is good.
How can anyone say God is one, and then say God can be divided into three persons? Have you ever met three persons in one?
The only time that three persons come together to form one is when they form "us" which is a union. A council or a nation is three persons who form one. A marriage is a union where two people form one. Is God three beings unified to make one? If so, then the God you are describing is not one God, but three Gods that are unified to make one God.
A person is a human being. The Hebrew word for "person" is "Nephesh." This word means, "soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion."
When you say God is three persons, you are saying God is three selves, three souls, three lives, three minds, three beings. You are saying you believe in three Gods. If you say God is three persons, how can you say God is one?
I have been told that this is the mystery of the Trinity. This is definitely not the great mystery. The mystery is not how could God be three persons. Rather, the mystery is how could God come to earth, live as a person, die as a person, and be resurrected to Heaven again? How could God be seperated from Himself? This is the great mystery which confounds the wise.
The trinity attempts to solve this mystery. How could God be seperated from Himself? Orthodox trinity says, "because God is three persons."
God is not three persons. He is one person. Jesus Christ is the expressed person of God. Jesus Christ is the image of God.
Quote:
Does Gods own self-revelation give us reason to believe that the doctrine of the Trinity, classically understood, is an accurate and true description, as far as it goes, of Gods nature?
The bible in no way supports the doctrine of the Trinity that says God is three persons. The bible clearly indicates that God is one. The bible clearly establishes that Jesus is the image of God. The bible clearly establishes that Jesus is the Word of God. The Holy Spirit clearly indicates to all true believers that Jesus is God.
The bible also clearly indicates that God existed as God the creator who created Heaven and Earth, as God the son who is the Word become flesh and concieved by the Holy Spirit, and God the Spirit who is Holy. Jesus Christ is the name God has chosen to glorify above all names. These three are one. They are inseperable. They cannot be divided.
If they are divided in any way, then everything we believe is false. For God said that He would be the one to save His people and no other.(Isaiah 25:9; 33:22; 35:4; 43:11 Zechariah 9:16) He said that we should worship Him, and Him alone. He said He was a jealous God.(Exodus 20:3, 5; Deuteronomy 5:7,9; 6:13; 10:20; Matthew 4:10; Revelation 22:9) He said He would not give His glory to another. (Isaiah 42:8) He said He was the King of Israel and Holy one.(Isaiah 43:15) He said He is the first and the last. (Isaiah 44:6) There is only one who is good and that one is God. (Matthew 19:17. Mark 10:18)
Zechariah 14:9 (KJ)
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Jesus is Lord.
I am sorry if you disagree with me. However, Orthodox Trinity is not a true and accurate description of God. It is man's attempt at explaining what God has kept a mystery.
In love,
Blake
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Blake Kidney
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| | 2005/11/22 10:24 | Profile | InTheLight
Member
Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2814
Phoenix, Arizona USA
| | Re: | | Beenblake wrote;
Quote:
I plead with you to read my other posts. If you say that God is three seperate personas, then you are claiming Modalism. That is not Orthodox Trinity.
I believe you still don't have a full understanding the orthodox position. I do not hold to modalism. We must have a clear understanding of the orthodox position before we can discuss contradiction. Again, here is what I wrote previously regarding Trinity;
The definition of the Trinity is this: there is one God, one Being who is God and only God; yet that one God has three different Persons, separate personas , the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son is referred to as the Word in John 1. That's our view. Our view is not that the Father is the same as the Son. Our view is that the Father is not the Son. Our view is that the Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son. But that all are equally God. They possess everything that makes God God. They have God's nature and can be called God, yet there is only one God.
Now here is a definition of Modalism that Ron (Philologos) gave us earlier in this thread, you can see that the definition I presented does not promote modalism;
Quote:
Your statement 'Jesus is God' would be accepted by modalists but they would not accept the idea that God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit AT THE SAME TIME. They are really saying that God is the Father, OR the Son, OR the Holy Spirit but is not Father, Son and Holy Spirit in communion. In this view there could be no 'communion'. The original proponents viewed the revelation of God almost as a 'one-man play' with God playing three characters; there could never be two characters on stage at the same time because there was only one 'in the cast'. Sabellius regarded the names Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as simply designations of three different phases under which the one divine 'essence' manifested itself.
I have also written previously in this thread of the communication and love exhibited in Scripture between to persons of the Godhead as seen in John's gospel and in Genesis. As Ron pointed out, modalism doesn't allow this.
In Christ,
Ron
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Ron Halverson
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| | 2005/11/22 11:22 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
I believe you still don't have a full understanding the orthodox position. I do not hold to modalism. [u]We must have a clear understanding of the orthodox position[/u] before we can discuss contradiction. Again, here is what I wrote previously regarding Trinity;
I agree Ron, there is so much misconception flying around that it seems that the whole of the thread has become blurred.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2005/11/22 11:55 | Profile |
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