| Poster | Thread | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | I wish to make an appeal to consider how rejection of Trinitarianism plays out practically in our understanding of the [i]love[/i] of God. Consider John 3:16:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16)
Arguably this passage is the great summary of God's love towards us. We are told also in John's writings that [i]He that loveth not knoweth not God; for [u]God is love[/u].[/i] (I John 4:8) And [i]We love him, because [u]he first loved us.[/u] [/i] (I John 4:19) God is love, but what is the great proof that God loved us? And how are we to understand that love? How can we [u]measure[/u] that love? More excellently, how can we understand John 3:16?
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, (Hebrews 11:17)
Here we have the type and shadow ('figure') of what God the Father had done. As Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only begotten son, so also, God the Father offered up His Only Begotten Son for our sins. We are told in John 3:35, [i]The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.[/i] The Father 'loveth the Son' is an expression of the relationship between the Son and the Father and is played out metaphorically in the Abraham and Isaac relationship. There has to be two or more or there can be no relationship. So we can deduce from this that on a pure logical level John 3:16 makes no sense at all unless we are dealing with specific persons within the Godhead.
Graftedbranch alluded to the eternal relationship between the Father and Son in an earlier post, yet we have to understand the far reaching ramifications of a non-Trinitarian view. If their be no real distinction in the Godhead then John 3:16 makes no real sense and down with that goes our understanding of God's love towards us. Our love towards God is directly related to how we perceive His love towards us. In addition to this we see how Christ so loved His father that He submitted Himself to the death of the cross saying, [i]nonetheless, not my will but thine be done[/i]. John again alludes to this and shows its impact on our love for one another:
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. (I John 3:16)
It is impossible to appreciate the love of God unless we understand to a reasonable extent the love that exists between the Father and Son. If they are not real persons then there is no real relationship. And if no real relationship, then there is no real love. And if there is no real love then what is the Gospel? The whole thing becomes a sham and mockery as its just a bunch of smoke and mirrors pretending to be real relationship with real love. That I can never believe.
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Robert Wurtz II
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|  2005/11/16 8:36 | Profile | beenblake
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Posts: 524
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| | Re: | | Dear Robert,
Quote:
What is sinful flesh? Is it the physical body or something else?
I guess by saying "sinful flesh," what I am saying is a bit confusing, and possibly even wrongin context.
Jesus was born into the same flesh that we are. He was born into the human body just as we are. There is no difference between the flesh of Adam and Christ in the first birth of Christ as a man. After the resurrection, Christ was born again, just as we are born again, and was given a new heavenly body. Notice that Jesus ascended into Heaven after His resurrection. His new life was eternal. However, his first life was given unto death.
Death is a result of sin, and in order for Christ to die, He had to become subject to sin. Christ was born with the Holy Spirit and was concieved by the Holy Spirit. He lived a perfect life and was without sin. However, He became sin for us, so that we may be redeemed. Christ did not need to die or be resurrected. He was already born of the Spirit in His first birth. However, He did this so that we may have life and join Him in this process of being born again. He did this for us, not for Himself.
When I say sinful flesh, I mean that Jesus was a descendant of Adam. He was born of the bloodline of Adam. This does not mean his flesh was sinful, for the flesh was never sinful even in Adam. The flesh did cause Adam to sin. The flesh is not evil. If that were true, then all creatures that have flesh would be evil. Animals are not evil. Rather, the problem occurs in that Adam who was in the flesh succumbed to it. He could not resist the flesh. He could not be good.
The difference between Adam and Christ was not in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Adam did not have the Holy Spirit in Him. In the garden, there was the tree of life, and the tree of knowledge. Adam chose to eat of the tree of knowledge. He did not eat of the tree of life. If He had eaten of the tree of life, He would have been born of the Holy Spirit. Rather, the tree of life was closed off from him. Adam then knew what it meant to be evil. To be evil is to exist apart from good. God is good. And so, to be evil is to exist apart from God. Adam was cast out of the garden of Eden, into a world where he had to work for his sustenance and live seperated from God. Although, this seperation from God is not finalized until death. God is the giver of life, and if we are alive, there is a bit of life in us. However, as God withdraws his breath of life, we slowly decay until finally we are taken into death, the final seperation of God.
And so, while Jesus was born of the same flesh and blood as that of Adam, He was born with the Holy Spirit. He was made righteous by the Spirit. By this, you could say that Jesus was the second Adam. However, saying Jesus is the second Adam implies that Jesus is going to be the First, just as Adam was the first, Jesus will be the root of a great number of people. Just as we all have been born of Adam, we all must be born again of Jesus. We must all come from the root of Jesus. We must be born again. For Christ to take that position of being the second Adam, for Him to be the root of all who are born again, He had to be the firstborn. He had to be the firstborn of all those who were to be born again. (Adam was the firstborn of all those born of flesh and blood. Jesus is the firstborn of all those born of the Spirit). Jesus is the firstborn son of God. Jesus is the first to be born again.
That is what is meant in Acts 13:33
(NLT) in that God raised Jesus. This is what the second psalm is talking about when it says concerning Jesus, 'You are my Son. Today I have become your Father. '
When we are born into sin, it is not because we are born into flesh, but because we are born into a state of seperation from God. Obviously, Jesus was not born in this state as He was born with the Holy Spirit. And so, I was incorrect to say that Jesus was "born into sin just as we are." That statement is misleading.
What I was trying to establish is that the flesh of Jesus, the blood of Jesus, was the same flesh and blood of Adam. Jesus was fully and completely a man. He suffered under all the same limitations and temptations of the flesh that we have and do. Jesus was concieved in the womb of a sinful woman. Jesus was born into a world filled with corruption and evil, suffered under the limitations of ignorance and childhood, and was even tempted by the Devil. And most importantly, Jesus died. He suffered our punishment.
When I say "sinful flesh," I am speaking of an earthly body that will die and decay. Jesus was born into a body that would die and decay. While Jesus was perfect, His flesh suffered under the consequences of sin that Adam brought into the world.
Hebrews 2:14 (NLT)
Because God's children are human beings made of flesh and blood Jesus also became flesh and blood by being born in human form. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the Devil, who had the power of death.
1 Corinthians 15:21 (NLT)
So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, Adam, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man, Christ.
1 Peter 3:18 (NLT)
Christ also suffered when he died for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners that he might bring us safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.
Does that make sense?
I hope this helps you better understand what I am saying.
In love,
Blake
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Blake Kidney
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| | 2005/11/16 9:54 | Profile | beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA
| | Re: | | Dear Robert,
I would say that your argument is probably one of the best for the trinity. Consider this:
John 15:12-13(KJ)
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Notice Jesus did not say, "The greatest measure of love is when a man gives the life of his son for his friends."
Rather, Jesus said, "The greatest measure of love is when a man gives his life for his friends.
What could be greater than to think that God Himself gave His own life so that we may have life?
God gave His life for me. He suffered for me, so that I could be His son.
In love,
Blake
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Blake Kidney
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| | 2005/11/16 10:02 | Profile | beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA
| | Re: | | Here is a scripture to consider in this debate:
Isaiah 9:6 (KJ)
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
In this scripture, it clearly identifies that the name of the son shall be called "the everlasting Father." I think it is also important to note that his name shall be called "Counsellor." Jesus called the Holy Spirit the "Counsellor."
This scripture shows that Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and Jesus is the Father. How is that possible? That is the great mystery. How is it possible for God to be a man? How can Jesus be both the "root" and the "offspring" of King David?
Jesus, knowing this mystery, even asked the Pharisees this question:
Matthew 22:41-46 (NLT)
41 Then, surrounded by the Pharisees, Jesus asked them a question: 42 "What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?" They replied, "He is the son of David." 43 Jesus responded, "Then why does David, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, call him Lord? For David said, 44 'The LORD said to my Lord, Sit in honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies beneath your feet.' 45 Since David called him Lord, how can he be his son at the same time?" 46 No one could answer him. And after that, no one dared to ask him any more questions.
More or less, Jesus asked, "How can the Messiah be both the Lord of David and his son at the same time?" In other words, He was asking how the Messiah could be both man and God at the same time?
This is the great mystery. The trinity tries to explain this mystery by saying that Jesus is not the Father, but rather Jesus is a seperate person from the Father.
This, I believe, is incorrect especially in accord with the bible. I could show you many, many more scriptures that prove Jesus is the Father. I have already showed you the scripture in Hebrews where it says Jesus is the expressed person of God, implying that God is one person.
Jesus is Lord. This is what I believe with my whole heart.
Psalms 118:27 (NLT)
The LORD is God, shining upon us. Bring forward the sacrifice and put it on the altar.
There is one Father, one God, and one Lord. The Father is God. The Lord is God. And the Father is Lord.
Isaiah 63:16 (KJ)
Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
Isaiah 64:8 (KJ)
But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Matthew 11:25 (KJ)
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
May I be but a "babe".
Praise be to our Lord Jesus!!!
In love,
Blake
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Blake Kidney
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| | 2005/11/16 11:12 | Profile | beenblake
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Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA
| | Re: | | Dear Robert,
Quote:
It is impossible to appreciate the love of God unless we understand to a reasonable extent the love that exists between the Father and Son. If they are not real persons then there is no real relationship. And if no real relationship, then there is no real love. And if there is no real love then what is the Gospel? The whole thing becomes a sham and mockery as its just a bunch of smoke and mirrors pretending to be real relationship with real love. That I can never believe.
I can certainly appreciate and understand this fear. The truth of the matter is that no one can appreciate the love of God unless they have been born again. For God is love, and in order for us to appreciate the love of God, we must be born of God. We must have God in us. Only then can we truly know what eternal love is, for we will know God and know love.
You said that if there is no real relationship, then there is no real love. I agree with this to an extent. However, what you are suggesting is that God cannot be complete unless He is in a relationship. And in order to justify this, you are saying God must be more than one person or else He is incomplete.
If a man does not marry, is that man incomplete? If a man does not marry, does it mean he will never know love? Cannot man love that which does not love him back? For instance, a dog does not have free will. Therefore, it cannot love. We cannot have a true relationship with a dog for a dog is not a person. However, does that mean we cannot love the dog? We can certainly love animals. We can love plants. We can love anything. We have free will. We can choose anything to be the object of our love, the object to which we devote our will.
God loves all His creation, not only humans. He loves the angels too, does He not? He loves the earth and everything in it, does He not?
God does not need a relationship in order to love. However, as we know, love that is returned is glorious. It is awesome to love, and it is glorious to be loved. When a man is loved by a woman, she brings him glory. Is not a loving wife the prize of a man?
Likewise, the love we give God brings Him glory. Our choice to give our free will to Him, to direct our will toward him, to devote our lives to Him, to submit unto Him, brings God glory. For God did not force us to do this, rather, we chose Him freely.
Love as we know is a choice. God chose us. And in return, we choose God. We must make the decision to choose God. He cannot force this upon us. He has already chosen every single person who has ever lived to be his object of love. God is love, and thus, God loves everything, including Himself.
Many people will point out that loving oneself is not love at all, but selfishness and the opposite of love. However, that is not entirely true. Selfishness means that you love yourself first, more than anything else. However, if you are a parent, you understand the importance of loving yourself. For you know that your children depend on you. You know that you children reflect every part of you. And so, you give yourself love in order that your children may also be loved.
Loving yourself, doesn't mean being selfish or self-centered, but it means realizing the importance and significance of who you are. As a parent, you know that you are vital to the life of your children. Likewise, God realizes the importance of being God. He knows that He is needed. He knows that He is the only God, and that He must maintain that position of being God. In other words, God chooses to be who He is, and He is completely secure and established in that person. That is what it means to love oneself. You are confident in who you are, so much so, that you do not fear anything or anyone.
As a human, to love oneself means to put oneself first. However, we strive to always put others first. We are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. If we did not love ourselves, then how could we ever love our neighbor?
God does not need anything. He is perfect and complete. God doesn't need a relationship. He is perfectly content and happy with Himself. He doesn't need anything. On this basis alone, God cannot be selfish. What can anyone possibly give God who has everything? What could God possibly give Himself? He is everything, owns everything, and is complete in everyway.
And yet, God still desired to have a wife. As Ron pointed out, God thought about humanity way before He created us. God does not need us. God wanted us. God chose us. This my friend, is truly an act of love. All of creation was created in love, for God had nothing to gain from it. He did it, not because He needed to, but rather because He chose to. This is love. God chose us.
God does not need our love, God wants our love. Is this not the nature of love? As men, do we not want our wives? Does not a deep passion stir inside of you for a woman? Is it because you need her? Or is it because you want her?
God wants us. He has a deep want for us like that of a man for a woman. He wants our love. God is not lonely or desperate. Rather, God is confident and secure.
The reason I tell you all this is because you are missing something. You are forgetting about us. God wants a relationship with us. And this is key. If God were in fact three persons, then why would God even want us? Does not God make it clear that a marriage should be between one man and one woman? Do you want to compete with another person for God's love?
The Church is the bride of Christ. The Church is the wife of God. Our relationship with God will be unique, like that of a husband and wife.
Jesus came to earth for us. He came to earth so that we may love Him. He made it possible to choose Him freely.
People say, "God must be three persons, for Jesus spoke to His father, and His father spoke to Jesus. If they are one person, then that is the same as saying God is crazy."
Jesus is the great teacher. He is the greatest teacher of all. And what better way to teach, then to demonstrate in person. Jesus, who is God, came to earth for us. There is no other reason. He had nothing to gain or benefit by becoming a man. He did it all for us. His every action, His every word, His everything was done in love for our benefit.
Do you honestly think that Jesus needed to pray? If Jesus was one with the Father, why would He need to pray? Jesus was given all the authority on Heaven and Earth. Why would He need the Father?
Jesus did all these things for us. He was trying to teach us. We are followers of Jesus. God came to earth and did all this to teach us. He did not just tell us, He showed us. Jesus lived it. Jesus was the Word of God made flesh.
Some people say, "Well that is just modalism." It is not. Jesus was not a mask. He was not a mode. He was the real person of God. God came to earth and lived as a real man, a real human being, a real person. He showed us His true person. Does not the bible say that Jesus represented God in every way?
Some people say, "Why didn't Jesus just come out and say that He was God, or say that He was the father?" Because, God wants us to choose Him out of faith. If Jesus went around saying, "I am God" and then proved it, how could we choose Him? How could we believe Him or have faith in Him if Jesus proved it. Rather, Jesus did this so that we may believe in Him. Is it no wonder the authenticity of the bible cannot be proved? If it were, could we have faith?
Faith is all about trust. We must first take a leap of faith, and trust in Jesus without knowing whether He is God or not. Rather, we call out to Him and ask Him to save us. We choose Him. We humble ourselves before Him, which means, we choose Him not out of fear, but out of our need for Him. After we are saved, we realize the truth. We realize that Jesus is God.
The last question people ask, "If Jesus is the Father, how could He die?"
This is the great mystery. How could God come to earth and be a man with flesh and blood, not just any man, but a man who died. Nothing is impossible for God.
Even still, this single act has confounded the wise. And yet, it is so simple that even a child can understand it. Jesus died for me and I didn't deserve it.
I John 3:16 says that we percieve the love of God because He laid down His life for us. Jesus died for me.
When we truly realize that Jesus died for us, then what is our reaction?
Jesus gave His life for me that I may live. Because of this, I want to give my life to Him in return. I have chose to make Jesus my God. I have chose to give Him all my devotion and love. I have chose to give Him my will. How could I not? This man gave His life for me.
And yet, by doing this, means that I am submitting unto Him. I am saying, "Jesus, I am less and you are more. I want to make you more. I want to give you everything that I am. I want to be with you and near you."
God loved us first, so that we could in turn love Him.
This is the gospel. The gospel is that God loved us first, and gave His life, so that we may live. All who believe in Jesus Christ shall not perish, but have everlasting life. The good news is this: In Jesus Christ, there is life.
In love,
Blake
_________________
Blake Kidney
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| | 2005/11/16 13:32 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Hi Blake,
You are correct in your assertion that Isaiah 9:6 and a few other passages seem to indicate that the Messiah will be called the Father, etc.; however there are also passages that you mentioned that seem to indicate that the Holy Spirit and Christ are one and the same; but, what I believe you are confusing here is 'substance' and 'person'. For example:
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. [u]I and my Father are one.[/u] Then the Jews took up stones [u]again[/u] to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you [u]from my Father[/u]; for which of those works do ye stone me. The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (John 10)
Clearly Jesus is saying here that He and the Father are 'one' and yet at the same time draws a definite distinction, [i]My Father, which gave them me...[/i]. The unity of the persons is shown in saying, [i]I and my Father are one[/i], yet this is not one person, but one substance.
Consider this passage:
If I [u]alone[/u] testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. There is [u]another[/u] who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true. (John 5:31, 32)
In these passages we have our Lord appealing to the testimony of another apart from Himself as evidence that He was who He claimed to be. But could a mere man have been witness?
Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. (v 33-35)
John Baptist was the greatest man who lived apart from Christ, but his witness was not enough.
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. (36, 37)
This coincides with John 8:16-17:
And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. It is also written in your law, that [u]the testimony of two men is true.[/u]
If the Father and the Son are the 'same person' our Lord here has no argument. But because the Father and the Son are seperate 'persons' then the whole argument stands, [i]...at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. [/i](Deut 19:15b)
To assert that they are one person is to make them one and the same witness. this destroys the whole of I John 5:9:
"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son"
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2005/11/16 14:11 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
If Jesus had not been born of our own flesh and blood, He could not die. Death is a result of sin. Jesus died, and thus, He had to have the same tainted flesh that we all bear. However, Jesus was without sin. In Him was no sin. How is that possible? It is only possible by God.
What you seem to be saying here is that there could have been no 'death' without Adam's disobedience, and that this must mean Christ was under the same condemnation as Adam. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. (Rom. 5:16, KJVS) Adam's condemnation was that 'in the day' he ate of the forbidden tree he would die. He did die, 'in the day' that he ate of that tree. This was not his physical 'death' but a much more fundamental death of which his ultimate physical death was symptomatic. Christ shared Adam's 'genes' but not his 'condemnation'. Sin is not natural to human beings it is an aberration. There was no aberration in Christ; he was as Adam had been created.
Your reference to 'tainted flesh' is another ancient 'heresy'. I am not suggesting that you have taken it from there but that you are making the same mistakes as did the ancients. Luke's description of the conceived God-man is mysterious and thrilling. And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35, KJVS) Christ did not partake of 'sinful flesh'; the care with which this is conspicuously NOT said is wonderful...For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (Rom. 8:3, KJVS)If he had come in the likeness of 'flesh' and not in 'real' flesh, that would have been 'docetism', if he had come in 'sinful flesh' which had to be purified in some way that would have been on the way to gnosticism in which 'flesh' is seen as 'wicked'. Both these errors are eliminated by a careful reading of the text which has 'in the likeness of sinful flesh'.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2005/11/16 14:25 | Profile | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Hi Blake,
Quote:
The reason I tell you all this is because you are missing something. You are forgetting about us. God wants a relationship with us. And this is key. If God were in fact three persons, then why would God even want us? Does not God make it clear that a marriage should be between one man and one woman? Do you want to compete with another person for God's love?
It was my intention in the post to demonstrate that God has shown His great love towards us in giving us His Son to die for our sins. If they had no relationship then the whole passage in John 3:16 has no real meaning. God certainly demonstrates He is a loving God in many different ways. We could begin with the mass of scripture to prove this and then shift to the creation which is delicately fine tuned in thousands of ways which point to a loving God.
However, my specific point was to demonstrate that the [i]supreme[/i] example of The Father's love for us was that He gave His Only Begotten Son. The Son demonstrated His love above all else in that He gave His life for His friends. This is the Father and the Son, the first and second person of the Godhead demonstrating love for lost humanity.
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2005/11/16 15:20 | Profile | dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132
| | MEDICAL | | Quote:
Christ was born of a woman. The sin nature is communicated through the man, not the woman.
I heard a medical doctor speak on the birth of Jesus and in his lecture he noted that the blood type comes from the father or the male issue and not the woman. Just a side note. I would conclude that Jesus' blood was pure by that reason.
_________________
D.Miller
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| | 2005/11/16 15:47 | Profile | beenblake
Member
Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA
| | Re: | | Dear Philologos,
Quote:
He did die, 'in the day' that he ate of that tree.
Just a thought, but does not the bible say that one day is a thousand years to God? Adam did die in that day, for Adam did not live past one thousand years.
You cannot say that Adam lived in the flesh and was dead in the Spirit. For these two scriptures indicate clearly that if God was to withdraw His breath, death would surely come:
Job 27:3 (KJ)
All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Job 33:4 (KJ)
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Job 34:14-15 (KJ)
14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
Additionally, if what you say is true, then the following scripture would make no sense:
Genesis 6:3 (KJ)
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Obviously, God's spirit strives with man until his death. To die in the flesh is to die in the spirit, unless of course we are saved by Christ who gives life through resurrection.
You can say that someone who is not saved is surely dead. Not because they are dead already, but because they will be without a doubt.
Here is a question for you: What is the difference between the Spirit as described in the scriptures above that dwells in all men who have life, and the Holy Spirit that dwells only in men who are saved?
This is a question that I have struggled with. Maybe you can offer a better answer than the one I have.
In love,
Blake
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Blake Kidney
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| | 2005/11/16 16:10 | Profile |
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