Blake

It may seem like you're being attacked but that's because you can't hear voice inflections and see body language through this type of communication. Always keep that in mind, what I see is Bro. Ron pouring out a lifetimes worth of diligent study and prayerful thought on the subject matter.
We all at times have interpeted scripture according to personal experiences or revelations when in truth we should let scripture interpet these experiences we have. I use the plural possessive as I sometimes can be guilty of that too. What I see in your posts is a bit of confusion, almost like you've adopted alittle bit of several doctrines and have tried to make them fit into your experience. I would ask that you go to Bro. Ron's site and download the article in the Godhead and prayerfully read/study through it and see if there might not be something there for you.
On a personal note , this thread has been very very profitable to me and I have and probably will re- read it many times over the next several months. God Bless you all Bro. Daryl

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D.Miller

I try to keep out of these things when they take this turn but I wanted just to say that although there is fundamental difference of opinion between my view and that of Blake, I have always sensed a tenderness of spirit in Blake, and am sorry when my expressions have caused him pain. I do think that Blake's personal pilgrimage has played a part in his current views on Trinity. He has retained the JW dislike for the word while rejecting their solution to the problem. In 'soccer' they have a phrase 'playing the ball not the man'. I always try to do this. It is Blake's ideas which I have opposed; not Blake himself.

I do, however, believe that our understanding of God is not an irrelevant side-issue but a vital factor in our personal walk and service for God. I am away for the weekend preaching in Nottingham UK but when I return I want to return to this site to show that the concept of Trinity is vital for a right understanding of substitutional atonement. These things are not peripheral.

My greetings to you, Blake.

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Ron Bailey

Dear all,

How can you not see accusing me of blasphemy, heresy, and idolatry, as an attack on me and my relationship with Christ? When Christ was being accused of blasphemy, did anyone say to Him, "try and keep in mind this isn't personal?" These are not small accusations being made. I would much rather you attack my character, because it says nothing of my belief. If you were to call me a fool or stupid or such, then I should not be offended. However, to accuse me of blasphemy and idoltary, not only attacks my person, but it attacks my faith. How can you not see that?

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Blake Kidney

Hi Blake,

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Robert Wurtz II

Blake,

Still think you are taking this way too personal. The acknowledgements from both Dohzman and Ron I thought were beautiful this morning, I started and stopped in a response to them finding nothing further to add.

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Mike Balog

Dear Robert,

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Blake Kidney

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Mark Nash

Hi Blake,

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Robert Wurtz II

Dear Nasher,

Is God one person or three? Let us review scripture and what it says about God as a person.

Hebrews 1:3 (KJ)
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

The above scripture says, "the express image of his person." This scripture implies that God is one person and Jesus is the expression of that person. It does not say Christ is the image of his person(s). Jesus is referred to as being the "image" of God.

In this scripture, the greek word for "person" is "Hupostasis" which means "that which has actual existence; a substance, real being."

The greek word for "image" is "Charakter" which means "or stamped on, an impression; the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile."

By these two scriptures, we can see that Jesus is the real person of God. Which makes sense.

In 2 Corinthians 4:4, Paul says that Christ is "the exact likeness of God." In Colossians 1:15, Pauls says, "Christ is the visible image of the invisible God." Lastly, Christ says to Philip,

John 14:9 - (NLT)
Jesus replied, "Philip, don't you even yet know who I am, even after all the time I have been with you? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking to see him?

If Christ was a seperate person from the father, then He would not say this. This clearly indicates that Jesus Christ is the image of God. If you have seen Jesus, you have seen the father.

Obviously, by the questions you presented, you realize that there is a distinction between the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. They are one, but they are seperate enough to speak to each other. I gave my answer to describe how they are distinct. However, for this discussion, what we need to ask is this: does this distinction mean that God is three persons? In order for us to determine this distinction, we must first understand what is meant by the word person? What exactly are we saying when we say God is three persons?

I have gone through the different theological views on the word person as established in the Church through history. The main difference that has lead into much debate is that the word "person" can mean either "persona" or "individual."

Let's forget that and see what the bible says:

The only time in the old testament (at least in the King James) that God is referred to as being a person is in this scripture:

Job 13:8 (KJ)
Will ye accept his person? will ye contend for God?

The Hebrew word used here is "Paniym" which means "face." This suggests that the scripture here was speaking about God's character or nature.

It is no wonder the, that the New King James version translates this differently.

Job 13:8
Will you show partiality for Him? Will you contend for God?

Young's says it in a way that makes more sense:

Job 13:8 (YLT)
His face do ye accept, if for God ye strive?

The other instances of the word "person" is used to describe humans, and as such, uses the word "Nephesh" which means "soul" or "'iysh" which means "man" or "Dam" which means "blood" or "'adam" which means "mankind."

The point of this is to establish that the word "person" in the old testament is a reference to being a man. Which means, that the word person, in this application, means more than just character or 'nature', it implies individuality. One man's soul is individual from another man's soul. We all share the same blood of Adam, however, we are still individuals and seperate. We all share the nature of Adam, but we are still individual enough that God can save us personally.

Can we say this of God?

Let us move onto the new testament and the use of the word person.

In the King James version, it is used 11 times, and in the NASB it is used 27 times.

The NASB never uses the word "person" in reference to God. The KJ version uses it once, in Heb 1:3. However, I do think this scripture is interesing:

1 Thessalonians 2:17 (NASB)
But we, brethren, having been taken away from you for a short * while --in person, not in spirit --were all the more eager with great desire to see your face.

This scripture clearly makes a distinction between "person" and "spirit." And this distinction is important. What is establishes is that a person has a body. Paul says that he was taken away for a short time in person. This means his individual was taken away. However, he was still there in spirit.

The greek word used here is "Prosopon" which means "face." In the King James version, it has been translated as being "presence." This is a different greek word from the one used in Heb 1:3.

If the above is true, then we run into a dilemma. Only Christ is was human. Thus, only Christ could be considered a "person." In fact, Christ could be said to be "the express image of his person." I suppose you could say that Christ is God's face. (**edit: I am not saying that Christ is God's face, but one could surmize this from the data.)

Obviously, what all this shows is that calling God a "person" is not entirely biblical. There are only two scriptures where God is referenced as being a person, and those two are in the King James version of the bible, but not the NASB.

So, what does this mean?

Calling God three seperate persons is based upon an interpretation of the bible by the early Church. Theological arguments in the early part of the Church arose over the use of this word "person" and what it means. If you would like to read up on this history, the Catholic Encyclopedia is a good place to start, for it tells of this history. The early Church was divided into "east" and "west" and they argued over the meaning of this one word "person." Some felt it meant that God is three "personas" or "modes." Others argued it meant that God is three "individuals." Don't take my word for it though, read it for yourself: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

Many people put up the argument that God is three persons because the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit are personified. As you pointed out, the father spoke to the son, and the son spoke to the father. They have also been called "He" which is a character trait of a person.

I do recognize that a distinction exists between the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. This distinction is not fully understood and is a mystery. John tried to describe it by saying that Christ is the "Word" of God. The Spirit of God is called the "Holy Spirit." However, should we say this distinction is enough to warrant calling each a "person"?

The problem I see with saying that Jesus is one person, the father is one person, and the Holy Spirit is one person, is what this implies. It has no biblical basis, so what we have to consider is what these words mean to the world at large. What is the context of these words in society today? If we are going to go around and tell people that we believe in this doctrine, shouldn't we understand what we are telling people?

To say God is three persons is to divide Him into three individuals. I have explained this many times in other posts. If we look deeper into the meaning of the word "person", we discover that it is saying there are three Gods. These three heads form a "Godhead."

The NASB does not use the word "godhead" anywhere. The King James uses it 3 times. Each time a different Greek word is used, however, each denotes "divinity."

The trinity is a biblical doctrine in everything it says, accept for the part that says, "God is three persons." This is not biblical. And because of this one statement, much debate has occurred in the Church, many denominations have arisen, and much division in the Church has occurred.

Lastly, "person" is a word that describes humanity. We are people. Often times, we personify things in order to understand them. Obviously, a car is not a person, but we will personify it by calling it a "she." We personify, or humanize, things all the time, from animals to inanimate objects to God.

Jesus Christ is a person. He lived on earth as a man. However, can we say the same of the father, or the Holy Spirit?

All three are one. And thus, all three are one person, the person of Jesus Christ, who is the image of God.

In love,
Blake

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Blake Kidney

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Blake Kidney