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 Re: Newly elected Iran President says Israel should be wiped out

bro mikey,
Thank you for posting that. I saw that on the day, and wanted to post it. When I read that, it suddenly came to me, "they have it, Iran has nuclear weapons".

They would never publicly speak this way if they didnt. Israel will not tolerate this for long....we'll see that familiar "Breaking News" logo, and then..................

 2005/10/30 18:55

 Re: Bro Ron

are you an apologist for the islamists in Qom Iran? (asked with a smile, so you don't misinterpet my tone, coz I love you, you anti-zionist

I don't know what to make of your writing except to say that anti-Zionism seems to be hereditary in the UK....."oh no, we're not against the Jewish people, we're just against Zionism".

Kicking against the goads , are we mate?

Israel would not exist today were it not for the Hand of God, how do you think such a tiny nation has navigated a life admidst such large and virulent enemies?

by power of arms alone?

because of American support?

Baruch HaShem.

everlasting covenant is just that.

anti-Zionist is anti-Israel is anti-Jewish.

the meaning of "wiping Israel off the map" is abundantly and significantly clear. They are not talking of political processes in Iran in regards to Israel, they used the word "fire".

 2005/10/30 19:10

Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


I don't think that's right, Neil.

Paul says that when the Jews rejected Christ, essentially rejected God, the message was given to the world. Those who accept Christ are the 'New Israel'. It's not about heredity, but about being 'Christ's family'.

Grace and Peace...

 2005/10/30 23:17Profile

Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah


I know what you are saying, Neil, and I agree with you.

Hi Frog,

Scripture nowhere does say that we are the new Israel. In fact, we are the grafted branches and in the end the Lord will restore Israel and we will all be one people under God.


Eli Brayley

 2005/10/31 9:14Profile

Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


Hey, Eli.

I'll have to look around, and try to find the scripture that that may come from. The way I understood it, is that if you read on, it talks about how well the natural branches can be grafted back on. Basically, the root of Christianity is in the Old Covenant, and those who follow Christ are those branches. Now, Israel has the history, and would fit well with the roots, but they rejected Christ, which is why the message was given to "all men". Now God's "family" is not in family lineage, or a country, but those who follow him.

Again, I'll look up some of the supporting scripture, but tell me what you think.

Grace and Peace...

 2005/11/1 2:32Profile

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924

 Re: grafted branches

bro Groh_frog
this is from the Letter to the Romans which you mentioned in your last response. again this is using the KJV which which is well accepted by many.

[b] 1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias F40? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded F41 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, F42 eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing F43 of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, F44 and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness F45 in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed F46 God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, F47 that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded F48 them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.[/b]

Paul says in vs 5 that there is a remnant which will be saved according to grace which is among the Jews. and then he says that the salvation by grace is available to the Jews and some took hold of it while the rest were blinded. Paul preaches the gospel to the Gentiles that they may accept it and the glory of God may be made manifest so that the Jews may be "provoked to jealousy" so as to seek after this salvation by grace through Christ and not by works.

Then Paul says that we gentiles are the branches which have been grafted into the tree because some of the original branches were cut off. We are grafted in because we believe in the saving work of Christ He also says that WE BE NOT HIGH-MINDED BUT BE AFRAID because if God didn't spare the natural branches, HE CERTAINLY WILL NOT spare us if we don't hold onto the belief of salvation through Christ.(vs 17-22)Also Paul says that if even the wild branches were grafted in, how much more then will the natural ones be grafted in? (vs 24) And in verse 25 Paul explains why the Jews have been blinded, so that the full number of gentiles may be saved. the He says that ALL Israel will be saved. So this means that we as gentiles are NOT the "new Israel" we are not Jews descended from Isaac who begat Jacob who then was named Israel. Now all Israel here doesn't mean every Jew, but rather every Jew who takes Jesus to be the messiah and accepts the offer of salvation by Christ for Christ said in John 14 vs 6: [b]14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me[/b]

Which means that whosoever doesn't believe in the salvation of Christ will not get to the father but will go to hell. Just as surely as there will be representatives of every tongue tribe and nation in heaven, so shall it be in hell also.

Israel has always been God's chosen nation, His very bride, we as gentiles are the church, Christ's bride. we aren't Israel and this portin of the letter to the Romans proves that. let us listen to the word of God as given to Paul and not boast or be highminded because the rejection of Christ by the Jews is for our own sake that we may obtain salvation also keeping in mind that if God didn't spare the natural branches, He certainly will not spare a wild one...

Farai Bamu

 2005/11/1 9:51Profile

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK


don't know what to make of your writing except to say that anti-Zionism seems to be hereditary in the UK....."oh no, we're not against the Jewish people, we're just against Zionism".

I had thought we might have a rational discussion on the matter, but it obviously isn't going to happen, so I'll leave you to carry on this particluar thread without me.

Ron Bailey

 2005/11/1 15:29Profile

 forgive me

I didnt mean to seem unrational, it's just that I really DIDN'T know what to make of what you wrote: ie..are you an apologist for the islamists in Iran?...are you anti-Zionist?

Most of the anti-Israel attitude I've seen in the western english speaking world HAS come out of the UK...that was my "hereditary" aside.

I guess I'm one of those who believes that reclaiming the Land is totally Scriptural, and that there is a divine mandate, edict to take the borders of Israel right up to the River.

There are some who call it the West Bank, others who call it the Territories, and those who call it Judea and Samaria, I guess I fall into that latter category.

No, you're probably correct in your assessment, rational discussion is not possible when a feller believes that his world view is rooted in Scripture.

forgive me if I upset you.


 2005/11/1 20:24

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: forgive me

Neil, re-wrote this I don't know how many times. And all I could come up with was more of an almost similar smugness which out to tell us both something...

No, you're probably correct in your assessment, rational discussion is not possible when a feller believes that his world view is rooted in Scripture.

Would suggest you re-read your comments and Rons again, note that he does mention a couple of times what he is seeking to understand and what he is [i]not[/i] saying, leave the presumptions behind. A rational discussion is possible if the slights and quips can be left out of it.

Mike Balog

 2005/11/2 0:31Profile

Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re: forgive me

I guess I'm one of those who believes that reclaiming the Land is totally Scriptural, and that there is a divine mandate, edict to take the borders of Israel right up to the River.

Neilgin1, which scriptures are these?
Are you talking about the Mosiac covenant?
i.e. the Old Covenant?
i.e. the Covenant that had to be "taken away" (killed, put to death etc.) so that the New Covenant of Christ's blood could be established?

Mark Nash

 2005/11/2 3:50Profile

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