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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Trinity Debate: Need Help

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InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
In this Scripture explains that he is beseeching the Lord as face-to-face being taken up in the third heaven. This is, outside of the time he speaks to Jesus on the road to Damascus, the only time that Paul speaks directly to Jesus. It is not the way I want it, it is the way I understand Scripture. Paul was taught by Christ directly.



I'm not sure that proximity has anything to do with the matter but regardless, it does not follow that Paul was face to face with Jesus when he made this request for the thorn to be removed. It seems the thorn came after the revelations, it was given to keep Paul from spiritual pride. I believe the thorn was persecutions by the Jews during Paul's ministry.

If the request of the Lord was made in a face to face encounter with Him, why was it made multiple times (thrice)? In a face to face, wouldn't Jesus have answered the question immediately and put the matter to rest? Why would Paul have made this same request again in the same encounter or in other encounters?

Also, if Paul was caught up into heaven wasn't he also in the presence of the Father? But the request was directed to the Son.

Just trying to make sense of it all.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2005/11/2 14:57Profile
LetUsPray
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Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: Trinity Debate; Need Help

Dear Ron,

So am I. Jesus told us that His Words had to abide in us. When we can't even agree on what words and how to interpret them, can we ever agree?

I believe that we make a dreadful mistake by continually interpreting God's Word. We leave ourselves open to doubt and whispers in our ear by the tempter.

Christ didn't come to form hundreds of different denominations. He came to build one Church and He promised us One Holy Spirit.

I have chosen to imitate Christ by praying the way He prayed, to our heavenly Father. What has happened to me over the last few years is that I cannot pray any other way, it bothers me and I loose the intimacy with my Father.

I don't want to go back there. It is for this reason that I struggle with all the different interpretations. One Holy Spirit leading us in all truth, should give us only One Truth.

Bless you brother,


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Hans Prang

 2005/11/2 15:27Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
I have chosen to imitate Christ by praying the way He prayed, to our heavenly Father. What has happened to me over the last few years is that I cannot pray any other way, it bothers me and I loose the intimacy with my Father.



We are called to intimate union with Christ, the pre-emminent One. To me, worshipping, praising, and making petition towards God the Son is just as natural as towards God the Father. There is no loss of intimacy either way.

Maranatha! Come Lord Jesus!

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2005/11/2 15:42Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Brother Rahman,

Quote:
So until He makes it plainer to this dim-wit i'm gonna take Him literally at His Word ... Pray for me bro!



We must be cautious to take the words of Jesus literally. Everything Jesus did and said had meaning that often times was said in ways to hide the truth to anyone who was not a true follower. However, if we take every word from Christ as being literal, then it can lead us in all sorts of crazy directions.

For example:

Matthew 17:20 - (NLT)
"You didn't have enough faith," Jesus told them. "I assure you, even if you had faith as small as a mustard seed you could say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it would move. Nothing would be impossible."

Has anyone tried to move a mountain by speaking to it? Have you ever heard of anyone doing this? Does this mean we don't have enough faith?

John 3:3-4 (NLT)
3 Jesus replied, "I assure you, unless you are born again, you can never see the Kingdom of God." 4 "What do you mean?" exclaimed Nicodemus. "How can an old man go back into his mother's womb and be born again?

Nicodemus took what Jesus said literally. Jesus had to explain further this truth in order that he could understand. Even then, the disciples could not understand what He was saying until the Holy Spirit came.

John 6:51 - 53 (NLT)
51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever; this bread is my flesh, offered so the world may live."52 Then the people began arguing with each other about what he meant. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" they asked. 53 So Jesus said again, "I assure you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you cannot have eternal life within you.

There are many more examples.

Everything Jesus said held deeper wisdom that requires the Holy Spirit to discern. We must be careful to take every word of Jesus as being literal and exact. Jesus spoke of many spiritual things that there is no comprehension of here on earth.

We have a desperate need of God in all things, including wisdom and understanding.

I pray the Lord will guide you, and all of us, to a greater understanding of Him.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/11/2 16:20Profile
beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear LetUsPray,

Quote:
If Jesus told us to ask the Father in His name, than that is what we must do. If we don’t, we are adding to Scripture.



There is so much I want to say, but I don't have time. I must keep this short and to the point.

I was raised one of Jehovah's Witnesses. They believe that Jesus was a man. They believe Jesus died for our sins. They believe that Jesus is the son of God. They believe that we need to pray through Jesus.

For most of my life, I have prayed. I prayed to the Father, whose name as they said, is Jehovah. I prayed every night ending my prayer with this statement, "in the name of Jesus." I believed Jesus died for my sins. However, for 26 years, I heard no answer from above.

We were told just as you said in that quote, not to pray to Jesus. And so, I never did, until the night I was saved. The night I was saved, I called out to Jesus, and He answered my prayers.

We are saved by Jesus Christ. That is why we call Him Savior and Redeemer. When Jesus saves us, we accept Him as our Lord and Savior.

To accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior means that we submit unto Jesus, and not just as lover, we submit unto Him as God. A Lord is someone who rules over us. A Savior is someone who we owe our life to for saving ours. By this, we willing submit unto Jesus as our God.

The night I was saved, I gave my life to Christ. I am called His. I am a Christian. He is mine. Jesus Christ is my God.

I don't know any other God besides for Jesus. This "father" figure everyone talks about is a mystery. Have you ever met Him? Have you ever seen Him? Do you know Him by anything other than the bible?

I have met Jesus. I know Him personally. He came down from Heaven and saved my life. Everyday I converse with Him. This is the God I know.

The Spirit of God is also in you. This Spirit is Jesus. Jesus is God. Jesus is your God. Whether you recognize this with your mind or not, the Spirit of Christ inside you knows this.

Lastly, the scripture above says, "Prove all things." Debating helps to prove things. When people debate they share knowledge and are able to weigh all things in accord with each other. This helps us to strengthen and increase our knowledge.

I do agree, though, that we should be a bit more loving in our presentation of our debates. We all act very fearful, like cats caught in a corner with our claws poised. However, even so, we should be forgiving of each other. The reason we all speak as we do, is that we care. We believe in what we say. All these words we share are shared with deep passion and love. That is why we all come on so strongly.

All things should be done so as to encourage each other and build each other up. At least, that is my goal. And I do hope you take my words in love, for they are not meant to be anything less.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/11/2 17:02Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Pictures and Types

From what I've read, and it's really hard to follow some of the reasoning here, there seems to be some who have circular reasoning as concerning the doctrine of the trinity. Paul calls the Godhead a great mystery. I've always likened it to the SUN , the center(or nucleus) is Like the Father, the effulgence or out shining-- that visiable representation or manifestation is the Son, and the invisible rays or that which effects the earth is the Holy Spirit. That much like a 2 dementional tri-angle with its 3 sides is another way to represent the trinity. In both cases you completely change the object if you lessen or take away any part from the whole.


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D.Miller

 2005/11/2 17:23Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Pictures and Types

I admit that I'm no scholar like you people are. There is one unanswered nagging question that goes through my mind as I read the posts. I ask: "So what?
I know you all agree in the deity of Christ, and so no one is dethroning him. But beyond that, I'm trying to wrap my mind around something that I can take with me. I haven't found that yet.

When it comes to the average person on the street, or in the pew, what REALLY is the issue we are dealing with regarding trinity doctrine?

I say, each person has their own theology - largely depending on their background. I once knew a lady who could not worship God as "Father" because if made her think of a mean, punitive deity, so therefore she only worshipped Jesus ( she said) He made her feel better. By the way, this lady abandoned the entire faith, and I do not believe that she ever really knew either the Son or the Father or the Spirit. She had a distant, absentee father and very controlling mother, and still had a lot of forgiveness issues to come to terms with.

Everone's view of God is colored by their past experience - even if they may have studied theology classes.
So if we want to be helpful, I think we have to move on.... to where the rubber hits the road.
Diane



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Diane

 2005/11/2 22:01Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re: Trinity Debate: Need Help

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

There is a certain number that will be in Christ, that is the fullness of the Gentiles and when it is come in.

This number and day and the rest of them that are alive and left on this earth who will not prevent the dead in Christ, He know exactly their number also, they are in Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matt 24:36 does not say that Jesus Christ does not know the the day and hour of this fullness of those that are in Christ. It only says man and angels don't know and that we should be listening for His voice and the Trumpet of God and the voice of the Arch Angel, when that day will be revealed and the Body of Christ will be taken home to our Fathers House where each one of us has a place prepared for him. If it were not so I would have told you. He knows the number of places exactly that are being prepared and when they will be finished.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

If you look up the word >only< it does not mean the Father only. 3441. monos
Search for G3441 in KJVSL
monoV monos mon'-os

probably from 3306; remaining, i.e. sole or single; by implication, mere:--alone, only, by themselves.

Jesus did know that the Father did not want this day or hour revealed, and would not answer the question for that reason.

You can't use Matt 24:36 to prove that God the Father has more power than Christ or the Holy Spirit. Try Again.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/11/3 0:25Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Re: Trinity Debate: Need Help
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

There is a certain number that will be in Christ, that is the fullness of the Gentiles and when it is come in.

This number and day and the rest of them that are alive and left on this earth who will not prevent the dead in Christ, He know exactly their number also, they are in Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matt 24:36 does not say that Jesus Christ does not know the the day and hour of this fullness of those that are in Christ. It only says man and angels don't know and that we should be listening for His voice and the Trumpet of God and the voice of the Arch Angel, when that day will be revealed and the Body of Christ will be taken home to our Fathers House where each one of us has a place prepared for him. If it were not so I would have told you. He knows the number of places exactly that are being prepared and when they will be finished.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

If you look up the word >only< it does not mean the Father only. 3441. monos
Search for G3441 in KJVSL
monoV monos mon'-os

probably from 3306; remaining, i.e. sole or single; by implication, mere:--alone, only, by themselves.

Jesus did know that the Father did not want this day or hour revealed, and would not answer the question for that reason.

You can't use Matt 24:36 to prove that God the Father has more power than Christ or the Holy Spirit. Try Again.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2005/11/3 0:33Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

oops, sorry did not mean to post twice.


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Phillip

 2005/11/3 0:40Profile





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