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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Rahman,

I have been behind the scenes following this thread as I am very concerned for your view of the Trinity. I am not trying to batter or bash or anything, I am trying to dialogue and understand and help convey the orthodox view of the Trinity. Also, there may be many listening that are influenced by the thread so we have to point out the error as it is an essential orthodox Christian doctrine that I don't believe is up for grabs.

Quote:
[u]robertw quote[/u] "...but it is quite another to assert that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are no longer persons in the Godhead; ie. they are not deity."

Bro. Robert did you read my posts? ... i'm gonna say this as humbly as i can but if you did [u]i think you're reading into it what you want to hear, and i'd really appreciate it if you'd go back and REALLY hear what i've posted, and not put "your words" in my mouth ...[/u]



Brother, I have no cause whatsoever to read anything into what you are saying. We are not at enmity or any such thing. I don't dislike you or have any beef with you whatsoever. I am simply concerned for what I am reading and wish to help you if possible consider the topic on a deeper level as to have a fuller understanding of what the biblical basis for orthodox Trinitarian doctrine is.

Quote:
___FOR THE RECORD YOU'LL FIND THAT NO WHERE IN MY POSTS DID i DISMISS CHRIST OR THE HOLY GHOST FROM THE TRIUNE GODHEAD OR SAY THEY WERE NOT DIETY ... WHAT i SAID WAS THAT i BELIEVE THERE IS A HIERARCHY IN THE "DIETY" - "TRINITY" - "GODHEAD" !!!!!!! ... BASED ON CHRIST'S WORDS THAT THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN HE, AND THAT ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS THE DAY AND THE HOUR ... ...



My understanding of your position on hierchy ultimately lead me to consider this post.

Quote:
[u]Bro Ron you wrote[/u];
"Orthodox Christians have believed that ominscience is an essential attribute of deity. If Christ is not omnisceint [u]He is not God, neither is the Spirit.[/u]"

[u]Bro. Rahman's reply[/u]; Well i guess that makes me an "un-orthodox Christian" (which i'm sure is no surprise to you and others on SI ... ), and [u]in the mind of some i'm a heretic[/u] (being broad here because i'm not trying to stir the pot anymore than i already have) ...

[u]Thank God i'm now not under the early Roman Catholic church and it's popery, or i'd be excommunicated by now for sure, if not burned at the stake ...[/u] Thank God for Martin Luther, at least under Protestantism those who may find my view defective won't try to run me outta town on a rail, but will instead pray for my enlightenment ...



My understanding of this post is that you had agreed with Ron's observation concerning your position on the Trinity and then declared yourself to be unorthodox and possibly even heretical. [u]I apologize if I gleaned too much[/u] from what you said, but it alarms me greatly.

There are varying levels of how we view teachings that are different than the established Trinitarian doctrinal statement. The belief, finally established at the Counsel of Nicea in 325, determined that there are Three Persons and one substance. That is, one ousia and three hypostases. Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are homo-ousious, that is, of the same essense and substance as the Father. This is why occasionally you will see the term "Tri-unity."

This means that all three [i]persons[/i] share in ALL of the divine attributes such as omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience. Nor the Holy Spirit or Jesus Christ had a beginning or have an ending. They are not lower disadvantaged demigods and God the Father is the one True God; they are all three [u]Yahwah[/u] or Jehovah (which ever you prefer).

Variations from this view are seen as :

1) [b]Suborthodox[/b]: less than orthodoxy, but not explicitly contrary to orthodoxy.

2) [b]Hetrodox[/b]: varying from orthodoxy in some [u]significant[/u] way.

3) [b]Unorthodox[/b]: varying from orthodoxy seriously, but not quite heretically.

4) [b]Heretical[/b]: Doctrine which denies one or more essential Christian doctrines in such a way as to bring a division in the Body.

In answer to the idea of hierarchy it is important to note that they do not have three individual wills as if one desired to do one thing and another desired to do another. Christ in His humanity said plainly, "The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." It was in His humaness that the struggle existed.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/11/2 9:06Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Rahman,

I haven't had a chance yet to read through all these posts as of yet, although I will. I am excited to hear everyone's responses.

However, I did come across your quote and I wanted to make a comment.

Quote:
FOR THE RECORD YOU'LL FIND THAT NO WHERE IN MY POSTS DID i DISMISS CHRIST OR THE HOLY GHOST FROM THE TRIUNE GODHEAD OR SAY THEY WERE NOT DIETY ... WHAT i SAID WAS THAT i BELIEVE THERE IS A HIERARCHY IN THE "DIETY" - "TRINITY" - "GODHEAD" !!!!!!! ... BASED ON CHRIST'S WORDS THAT THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN HE, AND THAT ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS THE DAY AND THE HOUR ...



I do understandy why you are saying that there is a hierarchy in the trinity as established by the scripture I gave, and by the fact Jesus said the father is greater than He. However.....

There are a few things you must understand about this.

Firstly, Jesus was a man. As a man, the Father was greater than He. Jesus, who is God, was lowered below the angels and came to earth as a lowly human. By this, the Father was greater than Jesus. Jesus said this to establish that He was a man. He had all the same limitations as we do. He suffered under the same temptations and conditions that we do in the flesh. He was completely dependent on the Father. Jesus could and did die. However, by Jesus saying the Father was greater than He had nothing to do with authority or hierarchy.

Jesus said that the father gave Him all the authority in Heaven and Earth. This means, Jesus has all the authority. By this statement, He was establishing that He was equal to the father in power. God did not have more power than Jesus, for God had given all His power to Jesus. This is a significant statement.

God is not a God who shares His supremacy. God is one God. This is established consistently throughout the bible even by Jesus. God is one. Even the Devil knows this. There is nothing greater than God, and nothing equal with God, other than Himself. And it can be no other way.

God is a jealous God. He does not share His worship with anyone. The ten commandments establish this. God hates idols. And so, if God gave His power and authority away to another being, then this makes God the biggest Hypocrit of all. Why would God give away His diety?

He didn't give His diety away to another being, He gave His authority away to Himself. Jesus is God.Jesus is God as a man. God established His human identity in Jesus so that we could worship Him in Spirit and truth.

How can we worship a God that we don't know?? Before Jesus, God was just some unseen Spirit in the sky. However, when God came to earth as Jesus, we could see actually relate to God as a person. By this, we could actually worship a God we know, rather than a God we imagine.

However, Jesus is not less than God in authority or power. There is no hierarchy. When Jesus returned to Heaven, He was again restored to His position above the angels at the right hand of God. He is no longer limited, as we are limited, by the flesh.

Jesus says that He is at the right hand of God for a good reason. Nothing He says is by any mistake. And it makes sense. Jesus is God, however, this is something we humans must accept by faith. We are not forced to accept Jesus as God. When we are saved, we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. This means, that we make Jesus our God. We submit unto Jesus as our God.

Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Who will be at the right hand of God? In Matthew, Jesus talks about seperating out the sheeps and goats. All those that belong to Jesus will be in His right hand. And so, Jesus will be God over all those who have chosen Him, all those who have made Him thier God.

For those in Jesus' left hand, they have denied Jesus. They have chosen to make something else thier God. Jesus cannot be thier God. And since Jesus is God, if you deny Jesus, you are denying God. If you deny God, then God rebukes you.

So, you see, Jesus is God. (There is no hierarchy). However, His diety will only be recognized by those who believe in Him. Jesus will only be accepted as being God by those who believe Him. That is why those who don't accept Jesus are cast into Hell. They are stripping God of His diety. They are refusing to recognize God as God, and instead are accepting something else as God.

When you establish a hierarchy, you are seperating God into three parts. This is a dangerous proposition, especially in the case of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Secondly, you must also understand that while Christ was on earth, He represented all that we were supposed to be. God came to earth to show us how it is done, so to speak. We are Christian, followers of Christ. A follower follows the leader. We are to be Christ-like. We are not Christ Himself, however, we try to be like Him.

Based on this, I think it makes sense then why Jesus did so many things like He did. Obviously, Jesus did not come out and say, "I am God." He was trying to teach us how to submit unto God. Notice how Jesus always submitted unto the father. Jesus always gave God credit, and always submitted to the will of God. He did this to demonstrate how we should act. We are to mimic Jesus.

Jesus never acted in selfishness. His every action was done in love for our benefit. His every word was for our benefit. Jesus set the example.

And so, Jesus, who is God in all ways, came to earth as one of us. He was God and man. Jesus made this clear by calling Himself the "son of God" and the "son of man."

However, you should be careful to say there is a hierarchy in the trinity. By this, you are dividing God into three parts. There is no division in God. That is why Jesus said:

John 10:30 - (NLT)
"The Father and I are one."

John 14:9 - (NLT)
Jesus replied, "Philip, don't you even yet know who I am, even after all the time I have been with you? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking to see him?

John 8:19 - (NLT)
"Where is your father?" they asked. Jesus answered, "Since you don't know who I am, you don't know who my Father is. If you knew me, then you would know my Father, too."

Hope this helps you to understand.

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/11/2 9:12Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Verse 28 is quite clear: When ALL things are subdued unto the Son, the Son shall himself be subject onto the Father, SO that God, the Father, may be all in all.



Here's a couple of clips from John Wesley and Matthew Henry that may help shed some light on this verse...

The Son also shall be subject - Shall deliver up the mediatorial kingdom. That the three - one God may be all in all - All things, (consequently all persons,) without any interruption, without the intervention of any creature, without the opposition of any enemy, shall be subordinate to God. All shall say, "My God, and my all." This is the end. Even an inspired apostle can see nothing beyond this. -from [i]John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible[/i]

The meaning of this I take to be that then the man Christ Jesus, who hath appeared in so much majesty during the whole administration of his kingdom, shall appear upon giving it up to be a subject of the Father. Things are in scripture many times said to be when they are manifested and made to appear; and this delivering up of the kingdom will make it manifest that he who appeared in the majesty of the sovereign king was, during this administration, a subject of God. The glorified humanity of our Lord Jesus Christ, with all the dignity and power conferred on it, was no more than a glorious creature. This will appear when the kingdom shall be delivered up; and it will appear to the divine glory, that God may be all in all, that the accomplishment of our salvation may appear altogether divine, and God alone may have the honour of it. Note, Though the human nature must be employed in the work of our redemption, yet God was all in all in it. It was the Lord's doing and should be marvellous in our eyes. -from [i]Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible[/i]

Also, when considering the Trinity I believe it is important to always keep the principle of the Cross clearly in view. This is the principle of living for and unto Another. This principle is clearly demonstrated within the Godhead, no member lives for or unto Himself, but Each lives for and unto the Other. The Father intends that in all things the Son might have the pre-eminance. The Son in turn lives to reveal the Father and thus brings glory and pleasure to Him. Likewise the Spirit speaks not of Himself but dedicates His activity to reveal the Son and to realize the purpose and goal of the Father and Son. Moreover the Father and the Son are dependent on the Spirit to fulfill the eternal economy of their Trinitarian purpose. The Triune God is interdependent upon Each Other for the common goals of the triune administration.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2005/11/2 9:25Profile
LetUsPray
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Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: Trinity Debate: Need Help

Quote:
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good (1Thess. 5:21).


Quote:

Hi Roadsign, and thank you to all who contributed to this thread.

Good questions and they are all answered in the Bible. If God’s Spirit lives in us, according to the apostle Paul we cry out Abba! Father! The Bible tells us that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Seal given by the Father to all those who confess Jesus as their Lord.

If one claims to believe in Jesus as their Lord it means that one has to commits him/herself unto Jesus. That is what the Greek word “pisteuo,” “believe or commit unto,” means. In Matthew 12:28 Jesus says: But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. What He is saying is that it is by the power of the Holy Spirit, He casts out the demons. He told His disciples to do the same in His name. The seven sons of Sceva as told in Acts 19:13-16, didn’t have the Holy Spirit, if they had they would have commanded the evil spirit to leave in Jesus’ name, with the power of the Holy Spirit.

How do we know that what we do in the name of Jesus is correct? There is really only one way: one of places this is recorded is found in Romans 8:
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint–heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

If I read this directly from my Bible it states that I have received the Spirit of Adoption by which I cry out Abba! Father! It is the same Spirit Who tells me that I am a child of God [the Father]. It states even more: If I cry out Abba! Father!, because the Spirit in me causes me to do this, I am an heir of God [the Father], AND a joint-heir with Christ.

That is why Jesus came, to save us from our sin and reconcile us to the Father. The Father begat Jesus, not visa versa. The writer of Hebrews declares this in vs. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. The Father declared the Son to be God, not the other way around. The Father can do all that He wants, He exalted Jesus, He gave Him a name above every other name. He gave Him the throne. This is all we have to know, if we continue to explain and justify more, we place ourselves on the same footing as God.

Even though Jesus explained that He cast out devils by the Spirit of God, yet when He prayed to His Father, He never mentioned the Holy Spirit as a part of His prayers. Why do we? Paul didn’t, and He told us to imitate him as he was an imitator of Christ. Why don’t we imitate Paul? Who told us to do these things, when the Bible doesn’t tell us that it was God?

If Jesus told us to ask the Father in His name, than that is what we must do. If we don’t, we are adding to Scripture.

I just read some more on this thread, for that reason I will close with one more Scripture. It is a quote from God’s Word and that is all we have been given to test the truth, and in this Scripture it clearly states that God the Father is the head of God the Son. This is written after Jesus had ascended into heaven. Anyone is entitled to explain that as they desire, but for me it means that the Father is the head of Christ. This lines up with all other quotes from Jesus Himself. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God, they are ever present, all knowing, ever lasting, i.e. every Godly quality exists in all Three, since They are all God. But they are not the Same, and yet They are One. Thank You Father of our Lord Jesus Christ that I don’t have to understand the mystery of God, but that You revealed all we needed to know through Your Holy Spirit. Amen.

The only practical test we have been given is the fruit of the Spirit. Interestingly the first and main fruit of the Spirit quoted is LOVE. I have non-Christian friends that respond a lot kinder than some of the respondents on SI. So I have found only one true test: the Spirit of His Son in me, and He causes me to cry out Abba! Father!

Thank You Father for saving me through Your Son, My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and giving me Your Holy Spirit, by which I cry out: Abba! Father! Amen.


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Hans Prang

 2005/11/2 12:49Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
just read some more on this thread, for that reason I will close with one more Scripture. It is a quote from God’s Word and that is all we have been given to test the truth, and in this Scripture it clearly states that God the Father is the head of God the Son. This is written after Jesus had ascended into heaven. Anyone is entitled to explain that as they desire, but for me it means that the Father is the head of Christ. This lines up with all other quotes from Jesus Himself. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God, they are ever present, all knowing, ever lasting, i.e. every Godly quality exists in all Three, since They are all God. But they are not the Same, and yet They are One.

I think you are missing the point in the first part of this quotation. There are mysteries of godhead which are before and after the story of man's redemption. No one doubts that in the work of redemption the Word became man and that man ascended to the throne of God. The question which has been raised here is whether or not the Word was always subservient to the Father or whether or not that is part of the price he paid for our redemption. His subservience was not out of duty or compulsion but was the voluntary giving of one who knew he was 'equal with God'. If every Godly quality exists in each member of the Godhead, it cannot be that in 'essence' the Word is in any way 'less' than the Father.

Campbell Morgan used to say that the Isaiah passage was a heavenly event 'overheard' by Isaiah, and was a conversation within the Godhead;“Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” (Is. 6:8a, KJVS) This is a fascinating concept. We do not know if this is the case but this would certainly accord with what the scriptures reveal of the Word.

Another aspect which must not be forgotten is the whole question of the value of the 'blood' which was shed. God was, in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself. If, in any measure, the Word is 'less' than the Father is creates a scenario in which the greater submits the lesser to be the sacrifice. This must be a cooperation of 'equals' for the value of the price paid on the cross to be protected.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/11/2 13:32Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Even though Jesus explained that He cast out devils by the Spirit of God, yet when He prayed to His Father, He never mentioned the Holy Spirit as a part of His prayers. Why do we? Paul didn’t, and He told us to imitate him as he was an imitator of Christ. Why don’t we imitate Paul? Who told us to do these things, when the Bible doesn’t tell us that it was God?



It seems you can't have it both ways here. You ask why don't we imitate Paul? Paul prayed to the Lord Jesus asking Him to remove the thorn in his flesh as found in 2 Corinthians 12. Shouldn't we imitate Paul in this area?

In Christ

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2005/11/2 13:40Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

This also brings up some interesting scenerios if the Father is, in essence, greater than the Son, then, according to Paul's description of the relationship between husband and wife being in correllation to that of the Father and the Son, Man is above the woman and a woman is a lessor creation. According to the scriptures anyway, if we are to hold to this flawed interpretation.

Scripture also says that Jesus was a little lower than the angels....then are we to assume that one part of the Godhead is not only lesser than the other but also is lesser than its own creation?

If I'm to follow the logic of the arguments presented here, that Jesus in the essence of His divinity is lesser than the Father, then these are the conclusions I must draw.


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/11/2 13:45Profile
LetUsPray
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Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: Trinity Debate; Need Help

Dear InTheLight

2 Corinthians 12
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

In this Scripture explains that he is beseeching the Lord as face-to-face being taken up in the third heaven. This is, outside of the time he speaks to Jesus on the road to Damascus, the only time that Paul speaks directly to Jesus.

It is not the way I want it, it is the way I understand Scripture. Paul was taught by Christ directly.

Most of us are taught through the Word and by the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.




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Hans Prang

 2005/11/2 13:52Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

There are some passages we need to compare between the Old and New Testaments in order to understand just who Jesus Christ really is. Here are just a few:

For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. (Matthew 3:3)

This corresponds to Isaiah 40:3

The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the [u]LORD[/u], make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

LORD in this passage is Jehovah. This is the highest name for God in the Hebrew Language. It was so sacred that Jews would mispronounce it out of reverence. Scribes had to wash themselves before and after they wrote that name. To this day you will hear Jews refer to God as "Hashem"; this word means "The Name." That name is YHWH or the Tetragrammaton.

And, behold, I come quickly; and [u]my reward is with me[/u], to give every man according as his work shall be. (Rev. 22:12)

Corresponds to:

Behold, the [u]Lord GOD[/u] will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, [u]his reward is with him[/u], and his work before him. (Isaiah 40:10)


Here [u]Lord God[/u] is Adonay Jehovah. This is God almighty or YHWH as He was known in the Old Testament.

God Bless,

-Robert









_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/11/2 14:44Profile
LetUsPray
Member



Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: Trinity Debate: Need Help

Quote:
If I'm to follow the logic of the arguments presented here, that Jesus in the essence of His divinity is lesser than the Father, then these are the conclusions I must draw.


Since, you cannot see the expression on my face, and the feeling in my heart, I will explain it. I am not angry; I don’t want to prove that I am right. I don’t dislike anyone. I have a passion for God and if you think that I am wrong, I love you anyway. I have a deep conviction of what I believe the witness of the Spirit within me tells me, but I will not be offended if you don’t believe this or agree with it. This is a Forum which stands for seeking truth I have been told and the Bible verse quoted in the heading of this Forum tells us “To Test Everything, Hold on to the Good.” That is what I honestly do. I also honestly have observed that if I want to “worship with the brethren” I have to make a choice, who agrees the most with what I understand from Scripture. If I want to obtain a Christian education I have to choose a College or University which teaches what I believe approaches the truth as I see it. Forgive me; this cannot be led by the Holy Spirit Who, as Jesus promised, would lead us into all truth. In the Christian Church of 2005 we have a multitude of truths. How did we get them? By interpreting God’s Word; not accepting it, but interpreting it. Why don’t we go back to the very beginning? In the Garden of Eden, the serpent said to Eve: Indeed, has God said? (NASB). It wasn’t Eve who interpreted the Word of God, it was the devil. The devil hasn’t changed his tactics, he still asks us: Indeed, has God said?

This is the reason why I believe it is unholy to go into a “debate” about the Trinity. It is unholy because it takes away from our God. We don’t have the ability or the insight to decide the relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, outside of what the Scriptures themselves reveal.

I don’t want to get embroiled in this, it does not honor our God, and it never has. Our God is Holy that is the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If Paul writes that The Father is the Head of Christ, then that is not logic of an argument, it is a quote of Scripture. And if my acceptance of Scripture is flawed so be it. Please remember that when Eve doubted, she fell.

When we read that the Father begot the Son, and declared Him to be God. That is what God has told us. If Jesus declares that His Father commanded Him to lay down His life. That is what God revealed to us in Scripture. When the prophet Isaiah prophesies: For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6), it is God’s revealed Word, nothing more and nothing less. It is not a Scripture to use in interpreting the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. It is the revealed Word of God, no more and no less.

When the Bible declares that Man is the head of Woman, that is God’s Word not mine, or anyone else’s. If we want to interpret this, that’s fine, but it becomes man’s interpretation of God’s Word. All Jesus ever told us to do is to obey Him, not to interpret Him. With all due respect, but in our churches we continue to interpret and then obey Jesus according to our interpretation, and not according to His Word.

If it is flawed to believe that when one has received the Spirit of Adoption, and as a result only wants to ask the Father in the name of Jesus, just as Jesus asked His Father, and told us to do the same, so be it: my understanding of having the Spirit of His Son live in me is flawed. But I wouldn’t trade it for this entire world.

I believed that if all Christians would accept that when the Bible tells us this, we would hear from the same Spirit, for it is the Spirit of His Son. But time and again, disagreement arises. Does nobody see that the Holy Spirit gives only ONE truth and that this truth should begin with a love and adoration of our heavenly Father, in obedience to the leading of the Spirit of His Son?

God bless you all.


_________________
Hans Prang

 2005/11/2 14:52Profile





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