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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born Again By What Means

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 Re: Born Again By What Means

Quote:
This is what this thread is all about. Will we continue in the doctrines of men or will we seek to understand His word through the power of His Holy Spirit.

Of course, I desire to understand His word through the Holy Spirit.

But, rookie, have you checked up all the times the word 'in' is used in the OT, of the Spirit affecting those upon whom it came?

Are you saying they were born again thereby?

If they were not born again, then, why not, if they had the indwelling Spirit?

Now, I see I have used the word indwelling instead of 'infilling'. That's because I have no dispute with the operation of the Spirit under the Old Covenant, whereby it enabled a man for service as a prophet, a priest, or a king, but, I don't believe the man had a change of nature. I don't believe the Holy Spirit enabled him to stop walking in sin, such that he had now no need to partake ever again of the sacrifices or the Day of Atonement.

 2005/11/22 12:03
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sis wrote:

Quote:
I don't believe the man had a change of nature. I don't believe the Holy Spirit enabled him to stop walking in sin, such that he had now no need to partake ever again of the sacrifices or the Day of Atonement.



1Sam. 10:6 Then the Spirit of the LORD will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man.

What kind of man did the Spirit of God create in Saul?


I have asked this of Graftedbranch, what law only is able to convert the soul?

Psa. 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;

Brother Phillip answered that it is the Law of the Spirit of Christ. I concur with him that this is true. Yet David also knew of this law. How else could he please God for we know that the law of Moses condemns and cannot change the nature of the carnal mind. Do we who have the indwelling Spirit have the same yearning for our Lord as David had for his Lord?


In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/22 13:01Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

The writer of Psalm 119 knows he cannot keep God's law. Listen to his prayer for God to empower him, to enable him not to lie.

25 My soul clings to the dust;
Revive me according to Your word.
26 I have declared my ways, and You answered me;
Teach me Your statutes.
27 Make me understand the way of Your precepts;
So shall I meditate on Your wonderful works.
28 My soul melts from heaviness;
Strengthen me according to Your word.
29 Remove from me the way of lying,
And grant me Your law graciously.

He looks to God and His gracious law to remove the way of lying in him.

Listen again for his next prayer.

33 Teach me, O LORD, the way of Your statutes,
And I shall keep it to the end.
34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep Your law;
Indeed, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
35 Make me walk in the path of Your commandments,
For I delight in it.
36 Incline my heart to Your testimonies,
And not to covetousness.
37 Turn away my eyes from looking at worthless things,
And revive me in Your way.

"Make me walk in the path of Your commandments," Do you hear what he is praying for. He knows that in himself there is no power to obey. He knows the way by which God's grace enables him to obey. By what means does God enable His people who know Him?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/22 13:10Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Let's approach this question a different way, then. Jesus breathed on the disciples. How did that change them? (Supporting scripture?)



The first fruit, Which is actually prior but is tied in because it is the fruit of Christ's resurrection, is that He said to Mary in 20:17 ... but go to My brothers and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God." And in keeping with this word he came to them and breathed on them saying, "Recieve the Holy Spirit".

This was the first time the Lord Jesus ever refered to them as such and never before called them "brothers" except in a prophetic way. Because He had been crucified and resurrected, they now are brought into the divine sonship sharing His LIfe and recieving the "Spirit of Sonship, in whom we cry "Abba Father'

It is the indwelling Spirit that unites us with the crucified and resurrected Christ and brings us into HIm and HIm into us and causing us to share through His redeeming death and resurrection Life, His divine Sonship.

And prior to this (breathing on them), the diciples were never ever "in one accord" and there is not even a record of them "praying" just asking the Lord to "teach us how to pray".

But here in Acts prior to Pentecost. we see the diciples gathered togeterh in the upper room. We see them in prayre in in one accord. Fruits of the indwelling Life of the Lord.

Also following the Lord's resurrection but prior to pentecost, we see Him as our brother pointed out, on the road to Emmaes, "He opened their understanding and began from Moses and the prophets to reveal to them all the things concerning Himself. This is as was promiesed, "When He, the Spirit of Reality shall come, He shall guide you into all the Reality and He shall take of Mine and declare it unto you." And the diciples testified, "did not our hearts burn within us as He walked with us along the way?"

These are all fruits of the Spirit who is the Spirit of the glorified and resurrected Christ.

But on Pentecost, according to the promise of the Father, the Spirit was poured out "upon them" and "clothed them" with power. This is like the mantle of Elija. It is an emersion in the Spirit.

The best illustration is that to recieve the Spirit as Life is like drinking the water, but to be immersed in and clothed with is like being put into a pool of Water. One is external as an envorinment and the other is a drinking of the Water of LIfe to be internal.

We need both aspects of the Spirit. We need Him as our indweling Life to regenerate us, to sanctify us and to conform us inwardly to Christ. We also need the Spirit as poured out at pentecost as our Power for preaching the gospel and doing the work of the Ministry. ONe is related to Life, the other to service and preaching.

The biggest point is that we first need to know Christ as our indwelling Life to prepare us for the 'outpouring of the Spirit in power". If we have "power" but not the inward knowlege of Christ as Life, we can be puffed up. If we don't know Him inwardly, then "works of Power" only make us taken up with sensationalism and a desire to see, "miricals" and such, which sad to say is charestic of many who advocate the 'penecostal experience". But when we develop our inward knowlege of Christ through the Spirit, we are prepared to be those who can be used in the work in power.

Graftedbranch



 2005/11/22 13:12Profile









 Re: Born Again By What Means


Dear Jeff,

You are not suggesting King David was born again, are you?

 2005/11/22 14:23









 Re: Born Again By What Means

Hi Graftedbranc,

Quote:
they now are brought into the divine sonship sharing His LIfe and recieving the "Spirit of Sonship, in whom we cry "Abba Father'

Where does it say this is what happened when Jesus breathed on them?

Other questions: if the disciples were [i]born again[/i] when Jesus breathed on them, what about the other 109 people in the 10 day prayer meeting which preceded Pentecost? Do you think they were born again? If so, when and how?

 2005/11/22 14:36
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sister Dorca wrote:

Quote:
You are not suggesting King David was born again, are you?



Yes.

Gal. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Paul teaches that Isaac also was born of the Spirit just like us.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/22 16:10Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: Paul teaches that Isaac also was born of the Spirit just like us.

Brother, Jeff.

Issac was born of Abraham according to the flesh, but He was the child of the promise. Issac is a type or picture of being "born of the Spirit'and Ishmael of one "born of the flesh, just as Issac was a type of Christ being offered on Mt Moriah. It is typology.

This scripture is not suggesting that the OT saints were born agian in the way New testament Saints are. IN fact in John 7 It is written when the Lord Jesus was speaking of Living waters flowing from our inner most being, "But this He spoke concerning the Spirit whom they were to recieve, but the Spirit was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorified.

The Spirit as the Spirit of the crucified and resurrected Christ was "not yet" because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

IN the Old Testament, the Spirit came upon them. He inspiried them. He empowered them. But He did not indwelling them as their life. It required Christ to go through the 2 processes of becomming flesh (John 1:17 and becomming the Life Giving Spirit in resurrection (1 Cor 15:45) to be able to enter into us as our indwelling Life and to bring God into us and to take us into God.

This is why when Jesus was glorified (in resurrection), He could now breath into them saying. "Recieve the Holy Spirit" (John 20:21)

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/22 17:47Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Other questions: if the disciples were born again when Jesus breathed on them, what about the other 109 people in the 10 day prayer meeting which preceded Pentecost? Do you think they were born again? If so, when and how?



Pentecost only happened one time. There has never again been a recurence of the sound of a rushing mighty wind, and the "cloven tongues of fire" which sat upon each of them". However the reality of Pentecost is with us even now. That is the outpoured Spirit of the Ascended Lord.

In the Same way, Christ's breathing into them was a one time occurance, but the reality of Christ indwelling us and regenerating us when we believe into Him is with us today just the same. That is when we confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus, and beieve in our heart that God has raised Him from the dead we are saved and regenerated and recieve the Divine Life of Christ.

I am sure that following His "breathing into them" they went and told the others and they too experienced the reality of the indwelling resurrected Christ. Not in the outward way of the rushing mighty wind which was to come, but of the inward work of the Spirit regenerating them and bringing them into the reality of the Divine Sonship.

The Lord Jesus said in John 1, "to as many as recieved Him, to them he gave power to become the sons of God, even to them who believe on His Name... who were born of God." And concerning our oneness with Christ and in Christ, the Lord prayed in John 17 "I pray not for these alone but also for those who believe into Me through their word".

Christ does not appear to each one of us physically and breath on us or into us. But He comes into us when we call on HIm and believe into Him. And even though the Spirit does not decend on us with the sound of the mighty wind and sit upon us with cloven tongues of fire, we too enjoy the reality of the outpoured Spirit who clothes us with power to do the work of the New Testament ministry.

In the same way today, if we are believers, we don't need to plead with God every day to regenerate and indwell us again, but rather we need our eyes opened to see and know the reality of His indwelling us. So too we don't need to plead with God and "tarry" for the outpouring of the Spirit for the work, but rather we need to have our eyes opened to see that Christ has been enthroned and the Spirit is poured out and He is available to us for the work God has called us to do. We need to do more thanking and rejoicing to enter into the Divine Realites than to plead for God to do some new thing. Our great need is revelation, having the eyes of our heart enlightened to see the economy of the mystery.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/22 17:59Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:

Quote:
IN fact in John 7 It is written when the Lord Jesus was speaking of Living waters flowing from our inner most being, "But this He spoke concerning the Spirit whom they were to recieve, but the Spirit was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorified.



There is another place in the book of John where Jesus prays to the Father that He be glorified and this takes place well after John 7.

Do a word search and find when our Lord was glorified.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/22 18:12Profile





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