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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born Again By What Means

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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
As new babes in Christ the Church is not teaching this and that is why we have so many different denominations and we are not all of one Mind




How could we be of one mind unless we hear His voice?

Isaiah 30:

21 Your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying,
“This is the way, walk in it,”
Whenever you turn to the right hand
Or whenever you turn to the left.

This is the only way that we might know how to be one in Christ.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/21 12:15Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother GraftedBranch:


Psa. 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;


According to Scripture, which law only is able to convert the soul?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/21 12:19Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Finally, "so send I you" As Christ had the power to forgive sin and turn the children of their father the devil over to satan or to destroy the flesh to save the spirit, this is that power Christ gave his Apostles the 12 only and Paul. This was a power which the primitive apostles exclusively possessed with Paul.



Brother Phillip,

These are interesting points, however the difficulty is I don't see where this is anywhere substantiated by Scripture.

What we need to see is that the Spirit is directly related to Christ. Following the Lord's imbreathing of the Holy Spirit into His diciples, there were no casting out of devils or forgiveness of other's sins, The Only fruit was that they were in one according awaiting the day when the Promis of the Father would take place. That is the outpouring of the Spirit in Power. And that took place only after the Lord Jesus ascended to the throne of Power.

The Spirit is the Spirit of christ. He cannot be separated from Christ.

I like Andrew Murray's word in "The Spirit of christ":

"From His nature, as it was glorified in the resurrection and ascension, His Spirit came forth as the Spirit of His human life, glorified into the union with the Divine, to make us partakers of all that He had personally wrought out and acquired, of Himself and His glorified life. In virtue of His atonement, man now had a right and title to the fulness of the Divine Spirit, and to His indwelling, as never before. And in virtue of His having perfected in Himself a new holy human nature on our behalf, He could now communicate what previously had no existence,-a life at once human and Divine. From henceforth the Spirit, just as He was the personal Divine life, could also become the personal life of men. Even as the Spirit is the personal life principle in God Himself, so He can be it in the child of God: the Spirit of God's Son can now be the Spirit that cries in our heart, Abba, Father. Of this Spirit it is most fully true, 'The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

Andrew Murray - The Spirit of Christ Ch 6

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/21 13:47Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"""Psa. 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;


According to Scripture, which law only is able to convert the soul?"""

Did it? If it could, Christ did not have to come and He died in vain.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/11/21 15:11Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

John 20:19-23 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

This is not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This is the power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
Ephesians 1:17-20 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the Spirit of wisdom (this is the Spirit of Christ 1Cor 1:30)and revelation in the knowledge of Him:(This is the Holy Spirit) The eyes of your understanding being enlightened;(By The Holy Spirit) that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, (Christ's calling) and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance (This is Christ and His inheritance is Col 1:27)in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of His power (God the Father)to us-ward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,


This was the baptism of The, and with The and into The Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:2-5 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he >>through


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Phillip

 2005/11/21 15:56Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

I don't know why but the posts are limiting to only specific space allocated and must be posted again to finish the post.

Page 2

the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith He, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Then They were filled with the Holy Spirit, Not before.

Acts 2:1-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. (((And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,))) and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

There was 120 waiting for the Promise which included all the apostles except Judas.

Acts 1:13-15 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/11/21 20:04Profile









 Re: Born Again By What Means

Graftedbranc wrote

'These are interesting points, however the difficulty is I don't see where this is anywhere substantiated by Scripture.

What we need to see is that the Spirit is directly related to Christ. Following the Lord's imbreathing of the Holy Spirit into His diciples, [b]there were no casting out of devils or forgiveness of other's sins[/b], The Only fruit was that they were in one according awaiting the day when the Promise of the Father would take place.'


That's because their ministry stopped when Jesus's had stopped, in Jerusalem, for the Passover. Then He was taken and ultimately crucified. We know how the disciples felt about that, and their fear and unbelief even after the Resurrection.

Jesus breathing on them may have primed them for the sound of a mighty rushing wind, such as they later heard on the day of Pentecost, but, they were the same unregenerate people they had been before the crucifixion - though they were on a steep learning curve as to God fulfilling prophecy.

Your point about their being 'one', cannot mean 'one in the Spirit', such as Paul describes in Ephesians and Corinthians, and this is later borne out by what happened in Cornelius's house. The most one could say is, they were all agreed on a human level, to be obedient to the last instruction Jesus had given them.

Do you have scripture to substantiate your position? If so, please post it. Thanks.

By the way, this request should not be taken to imply that I agree with Phillip's position entirely. I do, however agree with him that until Pentecost, there was no [i]infilling[/i] of people, with the Holy Spirit.

 2005/11/22 8:48
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
esus breathing on them may have primed them for the sound of a mighty rushing wind, such as they later heard on the day of Pentecost, but, they were the same unregenerate people they had been before the crucifixion - though they were on a steep learning curve as to God fulfilling prophecy.



Brothers,

I submit that the only reason that there is a problem with this scritpure and the fact that they were regenerated by the Holy Spirit on the Eve of Christ's resurrection is only because of tradition. That is preachers have preached that "the Spirit did not come till pentecost" for so long and this scritpure has been ignored for so long that it just goes against our preconcieved idea.

The fact is there is absolutely no reason not to assume that they were regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit when Christ breathed on them and said, "recieve the Holy Spirit". IT is implied in the text.

As to their being in "one accord" on the day of Pentecost, this exact senario was repeated again, when they again (after pentecost) were in "one accord praying and they were suddenly "filled with the Spirit' This was following pentecost and they again were filled.

Sorry to say but much of "pentecostal doctrine" has grown up around much misinterpretation, ignoring of scritpure, minemphasis, and very sensationalistic views. And the Reality of the Spirit as the Spirit of the Crucified and resurrectect Christ has been ignored.

IN most circles the Spirit does not even seem to be in any way connected to Christ. He is seen as another One, who comes to take His place and perform miricals, etc. But His relationship to the crucified, resurrected, and ascended Christ is absent from most's treatment of the Spirit.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/22 9:44Profile









 Re: Born Again By What Means

Quote:
IN most circles the Spirit does not even seem to be in any way connected to Christ. He is seen as another One, who comes to take His place and perform miricals, etc. But His relationship to the crucified, resurrected, and ascended Christ is absent from most's treatment of the Spirit.

I think you may be extrapolating your own experience a bit.... Of [i]course[/i] the Holy Spirit is connected with Christ!

Let's approach this question a different way, then. Jesus breathed on the disciples. How did that change them? (Supporting scripture?)

I will keep my next question till you've answered this one. ;-)

 2005/11/22 10:41
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sister Dorcas wrote:

Quote:
By the way, this request should not be taken to imply that I agree with Phillip's position entirely. I do, however agree with him that until Pentecost, there was no infilling of people, with the Holy Spirit.



Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

Luke 24:46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

Here is another section of Scripture which speaks of Christ giving the Holy Spirit to the 11 Apostles. This section speaks of the same event in John 20.

Look very carefully to what verse 49 actually says. "Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you..." The moment Jesus said this it occurred.




The infilling of the Spirit happens many times in the OT Scripture. This is nothing new, God and His promises are the same for all men.

Num. 27:18 And the LORD said to Moses: “Take Joshua the son of Nun with you, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;

Neh. 9:30 Yet for many years You had patience with them,
And testified against them by Your Spirit in Your prophets.
Yet they would not listen;
Therefore You gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands.

Is. 57:15 For thus says the High and Lofty One
Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy:
“I dwell in the high and holy place,
With him who has a contrite and humble spirit,
To revive the spirit of the humble,
And to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

1Sam. 10:6 Then the Spirit of the LORD will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man.

1Sam. 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel arose and went to Ramah.

Is. 11:2 The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him,
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.

Is. 42:1 “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

Is. 61:1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

Is. 63:10 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;
So He turned Himself against them as an enemy,
And He fought against them.
11 Then he remembered the days of old,
Moses and his people, saying:
“Where is He who brought them up out of the sea
With the shepherd of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them,

Ezek. 2:2 Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me.

Ezek. 11:19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh,

Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

Mic. 3:8 But truly I am full of power by the Spirit of the LORD,
And of justice and might,
To declare to Jacob his transgression
And to Israel his sin.

Mal. 2:15 But did He not make them one,
Having a remnant of the Spirit?
And why one?
He seeks godly offspring.
Therefore take heed to your spirit,
And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.

Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;

James 4:5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?



This is what this thread is all about. Will we continue in the doctrines of men or will we seek to understand His word through the power of His Holy Spirit.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/22 11:47Profile





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