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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born Again By What Means

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Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
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 Re:

Jeff, I listened to your firefighters.org proverbs is a wonderful book but it does not have life in Christ in it. It does have daily guide to what is wright and wrong and how to live ones life and by works be pleasing to God.
But the life of Christ birthed in the believer is only answer of how we are pleasing to God. God does not even look at what we do, He only looks at His Son that is in us, and by this we are pleasing to God. Proverbs is wise council, but Christ Himself is our Wisdom and renewing our mind to the mind of Christ is the only way we will ever be conformed into His image.

This is a long read but it is from a man that is much wiser in the Things of Christ and the Holy Spirit than I am. I would only ask that you return the time used to listen to your post and read this with an open mind and hear what the spirit of truth says about the Christ and the Holy Spirit that is in you.

By Warren Litzman:

The Holy Spirit and the Liberating Secret

In the last series of messages Jesus gave in John 14, 15 and 16, He laid out something very important concerning the Holy Spirit. These three chapters introduce the Holy Spirit, who was yet to come. In John 14:20, Jesus specifically said, “At that day [the Day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit comes] ye shall know that I am in my Father and ye in me, and I in you” (author’s translation added).

That is a very important statement Jesus made. If we do not understand what Jesus said, we will not understand the liberating secret. Jesus said only when the Holy Spirit comes would you know what God had done and who you are. You would know that “I am in you and you are in me.” It is obvious to me, from reading the Scriptures, that the Holy Spirit came and multitudes did not understand what Jesus had said at all! They did not have any knowledge about the birthing. They did not have any understanding about how Christ was in the believer and the believer was in Christ. Nothing is written about this truth in the book of Acts. The whole of what the Holy Spirit came to do, as far as Jesus was concerned, was missed. It is the same in the Christian world today with multitudes of believers misusing the Holy Spirit. They think He is power and the blessing, and they make Him the gifted one. They teach that He is the one who empowers man to be something in and of Himself, but Jesus never spoke of that being the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said when the Holy Spirit came, He would not do anything of Himself; He would not speak of Himself but would take the things of Jesus and reveal them to the believer (John 15:26; 16:13–14). It was a mystery that needed to be revealed. That mystery was Christ in man (Col. 1:26–27). The Holy Spirit would perform and reveal that ministry. Not be the Father or the Son, but the revealer of the Mystery. Col 1: 27

Jesus did not answer Nicodemus when he questioned Jesus about being Born Again, because it was the Holy Spirit’s work to reveal the Son and He had not come in the believer yet. The Holy Spirit reveals Christ in and to the believer! This was missed in the book of Acts. Blessed as the book of Acts is, we have no record of Christ as the life of the believer until some years later when Paul received a revelation of Christ as his life (Gal. 1:15–16). The mystery is very important! Paul said only the Holy Spirit could reveal the mystery. Paul speaks of several mysteries, but the mystery of godliness is Christ in you, your only hope of glory (Col. 1:26–27). You come to know that only by the Holy Spirit.

The New Creation In Christ Jesus

He who is saved is “created in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:10). “In Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature” (Gal. 6:15). This creation takes the place of the old creation in the first Adam.

“If any man be in Christ Jesus, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2 Cor. 5:17).

This new creation is “the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness” (Eph. 4:24).

The new man is the born-again man, the one born of the Spirit, as distinguished from the old man, or carnal man, the one born of the flesh. The old man has a corrupt sin-nature, with inborn tendency to evil. The new man is partaker of the divine nature and life, and in no sense is the old man made over, or improved (Eph. 4:24; Rom. 6:6).

God created Adam in His own likeness (Gen. 5:1–2). Afterward, “Adam…begat a son in his own likeness, after his image and called his name Seth” (Gen. 5:3). This is the beginning of the generations of the human race. But something happened in the interval between the second and third verses of Genesis 5. Adam, through sin, had lost his likeness of God. When Seth was begotten in Adam’s “own likeness, after his own image,” it was not in the original likeness to God, but it was in the likeness of sinful Adam. Scripture said of Adam “and he died,” so it was also said of Seth “and he died.” The observant reader will find the following formula throughout the chapter: “And all the days of…are…years: and he died.” There is but one exception, Enoch, of whom it is not said, “and he died.” Enoch, who was “translated that he should not see death” (Heb. 11:5), is a type of those saints who are to be translated when Christ comes for His Church.

Ever since, that same formula has applied to man. Every descendant of Adam, from Cain and Seth down to the present day, has been born in the likeness and after the image of Adam, with a sinful nature and subject to death. There is absolutely no exception from this condition. Therefore,

“Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all have sinned” (Rom. 5:12).

Thus, “by the offence of one, judgment came upon all men” (Rom. 5:18). The words which are written large over the first creation, of which Adam is the federal head, are: Sin Hath Reigned unto Death.

That condition is unalterable, for God had commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and had made death the penalty for disobedience. That means death in its fullest significance: physical death, spiritual separation from God and the second death, which is the final everlasting separation of the body, soul and spirit from God. God’s commandment had been broken, and the penalty could not be avoided. When the Son of God became flesh and came into the world, He dwelt among men of the old creation. But He was not of it. He was not of the seed of Adam, but of the seed of His heavenly Father. Therefore, He did not possess Adam’s sinful nature, but was like Adam before the Fall in the garden, Innocent. He was full of truth (John 1:14). He was in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom. 8:3), but no sin was in Him.

Through love, Christ identified Himself with the first creation and took upon Himself its guilt. He was the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. As a result, He tasted death for every man (Heb. 2:9). But God raised Him up, “having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that He should be holden of it” (Acts 2:24). He rose victorious over death. The Son of God? Yes, but also the Son of man. With His resurrection, there was a new creation raised by God out of the death of the old. All who are saved are quickened together with Christ in this resurrection.

“But God…even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:4–6).

As the first creation has one man as its federal head (Adam) so also has the new creation the last Adam man, Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:15). The first creation received its sinful nature from its federal head, Adam. The new creation receives its righteous nature from its federal head, the man, Jesus Christ, for “by the obedience of one, many shall be made righteous” (Rom. 5:19). In each case, the nature of the creation depends upon the act of the head. It does not depend upon the acts of those who issue from the head.

As the unalterable law of the first creation is sin unto death, so the law of the new creation is grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life. The law of the new creation is even more unalterable than that of the first creation.

“For if by one man’s offence, death reigned by one: much more they which received abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:17).

Since the head of the new creation cannot be condemned (Rom. 6:9–10), the members cannot be condemned. To be saved is to be rebirthed into the new creation under the law of righteousness unto eternal life. If one who has been re-birthed can be un-birthed, it must be possible to bring him back into his original position in the old creation. That is impossible! To say this could happen would contradict Jesus’ own words: “He that heareth my words and believeth on him that sent me…shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24). Furthermore, for everyone that is in the new creation, the old has passed away (2 Cor. 5:17). There can be no return to it. To say a saved person, one who has been quickened (rebirthed) together with Christ, can be lost is to reject completely God’s teachings concerning His new creation.

For the most part, in Christianity today, we have a religious idea that a new creature means we are an old person made better. Because Christians do not understand the birthing, they keep this idea that they are getting better; however, it was never God’s intention that we be better. It was never God’s intention that we be good on our own. We have missed the point, and that is why we fail as Christians. That is why we are not steady, nor do we quit our sinning. Our thinking and actions do not change because there is no concept change. A Christian is not a changed person; he has a totally exchanged life! That is what “new creation” means.

You may have thought life was the way you lived; but the life, the only life there is, is in the Son. Some theologians who write translations from the Greek have another translation of that verse that says, “If any man be in Christ he is a new race of people.” That translation fits what the Scriptures teach. As you read the Scriptures, they say we are strangers and sojourners; we are not a part of this earth at all. We are a heavenly people and were never intended to be earthly people, "as Christ is, so are we in this world". We are an entirely new race of people, but we have no understanding of that. How do you get to be a new race of people? You have to be birthed by a father, but it cannot be the same father you had in the previous race. To be of a new race of people you have to have a father who is of that race. God does not change us from one thing to another; He has an entirely new race of people on this earth who are not earthly but are heavenly. When you understand the birthing, you understand the lifeline of 2 Corinthians 5:17, “Old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” We are a new race of people because the old has passed away and our father is no longer satan, but God the Father. Most Christians do not understand this truth and that is why the world is not flocking to Christianity. The liberating secret of Christianity is still in God because we have not allowed the Holy Spirit to reveal it to us.

Paul said these truths were once hidden from apostles and prophets but are now made known by the Spirit. The writer of Hebrews said in Hebrews 1:1–2 that in the last days, God will no longer speak through prophets but by His Son. This is so because they are a new race of people. They are not old people that have accepted Jesus as their Savior; they are re-birthed people. If you really knew that, your life would be radically changed by that knowledge. You would know the only life you now live is Christ. You would know there is only life in the Son. You would know the only way you have life is by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. If you understood the essence and the power of that, it would change your world, your mind and your ideas. It would change your health, your problems and your marriage. I am not talking about being a “good Christian” because I do not think you can be a good Christian. I am not talking about being holy because I do not think you can be holy. I am talking about a birthing. I am talking about something God has done in you. God put someone in you who made the difference, who made you different in character and person than you ever dreamed you were. You have been born again.

In John 3:7, Jesus said you must be born again, and not until the next to the last epistle written in the Bible is that statement ever used again. In fact, it is only used twice in the Bible. In 1 Peter 1:23 it says, “Being born again not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible.” You are birthed in the natural because a father and a mother cohabited. They performed an act of love; and, as a result, the father put his seed in the mother, and that seed is another person.

There is nothing a mother can do to bring about that other person aside from the father’s seed. The mother may have cohabited; she may give herself; she may genetically give her ovum to encompass that seed and bring out genetic effects in that person created, but that mother cannot produce another person by herself. It is done by the father’s seed. What did Jesus mean when He said, You must be born again? He literally said there must be another father in the picture because only fathers produce fruit. Mothers cannot produce fruit; they only bear it. Believers cannot produce fruit; they are mothers who can only bear the seed that is put in them. You cannot produce a Christian life. I do not care how many times you are baptized, how many churches you join, how many times you make commitments, how many times you consecrate yourself, how many times you go to the altar, how much good work you do; as a believer, you cannot do any good works to please the Father. There is nothing you can do to produce Christ-likeness or the Christ-life. You must start with that fact. There are many things you will do, but there is nothing you can do to produce that seed. The seed has to come from a father. That is what Peter is saying in 1 Peter 1:23. He says you are born again by the Father putting His seed in you.

Let me tell you what happened the instant you believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. First, you need to understand that all you needed to do was believe. Acts 16:31 says, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shall be saved.” The instant you believed, you cohabited with another Father; and that Father, in an act of love, birthed in you His dear Son. That birthing is an act of love. Notice in 1 Peter 1:23 he said, “Being born again not of corruptible seed.” The new creation race was introduced in that verse. The corruptible seed is what happened to you when your natural mother and father came together. When your natural father planted a seed in your mother, you were birthed in corruption. Because of that, you came into this world a sinner with a sin-nature needing a Savior. You were unable to save or redeem yourself. The corruptible seed is the old life and not the life we now live. The life we now live is Christ because He has been birthed in us. This truth is explained more completely in 2 Peter 1:4: “Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises; that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature.”

There are a number of things to be said about this verse. How is it this awesome event of another Father birthing in you another person takes place? It takes place by what you believe. How did you become a sinner? You became a sinner because your forefather believed what the Devil said. In the Garden of Eden, the progenitor of the human race had God’s Word available along with what Satan had said. Instead of believing God, he believed the Devil and thereby took on Satan’s nature so that every child he produced had Satan’s nature. That is why the Scripture says, “Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble” (Job 14:1). In sin did our mothers conceive us. How did that happen? Because Satan planted the thought in Adam’s mind that if you eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil you will be as your own god (Gen. 3:5). You would not need almighty God; you will be your own god. Sinners believe they are their own person and can do their own thing. That is from the old nature. Peter said because we believe the promises of God, we have become partakers of a new nature.

Notice what Peter said in both of the verses we have looked at. In 1 Peter 1:23 he says, “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God.” We are born again by the Word of God. We are not born again by a preacher, by baptism, by joining a church, by doing good works or by trying; we are born again by the Word of God. This all happens by believing. “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved.” Look at what Peter says in 2 Peter 1:4: “Whereby are given to us exceeding great and precious promises; that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature.”

By God’s Word (the precious promises) you are a partaker of the divine nature. Another Father put His nature in you. That means the nature of God is in the seed, and the seed is the life, and the life is Christ, Christ in you. How did you get Christ in you? By believing what the Scripture said you became a partaker of the same nature of God. Do you know why people keep sinning and doing their own thing? They do not know who they are. No one has ever taught the birthing to them. They think they are getting better, or they are going to get better or will do right tomorrow, but that is false thinking.

When you believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, the Father put His perfect Son in you. You may not live like it, talk like it, act like it, or believe it because you do not understand the birthing. Religion and Satan have been instrumental in confusing us. We have not been preaching the Word. We do not preach what God did! Multitudes of people waver back and forth between sin and righteousness because they do not know God’s righteousness is in them. Every time you open your mouth to say a vile word, if you knew the only life in you is Christ, what would happen in what you say? The problem is not sin but rather not really believing Christ has been birthed in you! You have no concept that God’s nature is in you. If you believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, God put His seed in you. That is how simple it was when you were born again.

After Christ has been birthed in you, the Father will not depend on you at all; He will depend on His Son in you. As you walk on this earth, He will not depend on you acting righteous, He will depend on Christ in you, your hope of glory—that is the gospel. You have been lied to by religion and told that you need to be better, you need to put it all together, you need to get it under control, but that is a lie because you cannot do it. But the nature God put in you was God, the Son. You are partakers of His divine nature, and Christ can and will do what you cannot.

Conclusion

In this article, I have detailed how the Bible defines the word birthing for us. The most ironic thing in the Scriptures is that the Apostle Paul never used the expression born again, let alone the word birthing. John paralleled our new birth with natural birth by saying God so loved that He committed an act of cohabitation with the sinner. When the Apostle Paul had his revelation of Christ in him, he saw something John never saw, nor did Jesus of Nazareth comment on. When it was revealed to him that Christ was in him, the Apostle Paul saw it as a great mystery, which is truly what it is.

The religious world has thrown the term born again around without proper explanation. Paul said it is a mystery that goes far beyond comprehension; therefore, it would have to be revealed to you.

“Eye hath not seen nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him, but God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit” (1 Cor. 2:9–10).

In this article, I have brought out in John’s writings what the birthing means, but that is not worth a nickel to you until you have a revelation of it. A preacher can say that we are born again, but that is not the gospel. The gospel is not something that happened to us as an experience. The gospel is Christ in us. Paul said we are in Christ 146 times. The final understanding of this must come through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit works in our soul to bring our soul to understand Christ in us. That is why the power you receive when you are filled with the Holy Spirit is in this knowing. Jesus said He (the Holy Spirit) would not speak of anything but Christ when He comes. The birthing is what Christianity is all about.

Thank you for taking the time to understand better where I am coming from.

In Christ: Phillip



_________________
Phillip

 2007/11/29 2:35Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:


Quote:
Jeff, I listened to your firefighters.org proverbs is a wonderful book but it does not have life in Christ in it. It does have daily guide to what is wright and wrong and how to live ones life and by works be pleasing to God.
But the life of Christ birthed in the believer is only answer of how we are pleasing to God. God does not even look at what we do, He only looks at His Son that is in us, and by this we are pleasing to God. Proverbs is wise council, but Christ Himself is our Wisdom and renewing our mind to the mind of Christ is the only way we will ever be conformed into His image.



Did you understand the points that Kelfer was stating that the book of Proverbs contains the knowledge of the mind of Christ. He then described a person's experience who was not born again. He said that this person would only experience frustration and guilt.

But then he points to the life of Christ and the power of the indwelling Spirit in us, that if we choose to obey His voice, and if we choose to call on the name of Christ, Christ himself will enable us to live according to the knowledge of the mind of Christ that is found in the book of Proverbs....

Did you hear this in the sermon?
I will read and consider the article you offered here, as well as further reading of the writings and teachings of Warren Litzman...

Your brother in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/29 3:50Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sis wrote:


Quote:
Still it is guesswork to assume these words are an accurate description of the life of Job himself (as I said earlier), as it sounds prophetic to me. Therefore, we do expect to find the same fruit in the life of Christ, and in our lives, but, do we find it in ourselves?



If you do not believe what Scripture says of Job's life do you believe what Scripture says of David's life, Joseph's life, Abraham's life, Ezekiel's life, Jeremiah's life, Paul's life, John's life, can any of the testimonies in Scripture be used to evaluate, to see the fruits of God's work in men? Where does one start to believe what Scripture says?

I believe that we are given the Scriptures so that we can "know," that we can "evaluate," that we can recognize His workmanship taking place in our own lives.

If you look at the work that God did in Jobs life, the fruit and what he considered to be the most important things in his life, are these aspects not representative of the same things all the Apostles also strove for?

When Jesus taught, what does Scripture say of many who heard His words? Were people affected in the same way as when Job spoke...
7 “When I went out to the gate by the city,
When I took my seat in the open square,
8 The young men saw me and hid,
And the aged arose and stood;
9 The princes refrained from talking,
And put their hand on their mouth;
10 The voice of nobles was hushed,
And their tongue stuck to the roof of their mouth.
11 When the ear heard, then it blessed me,
And when the eye saw, then it approved me;

The works of Job accomplished this in his generation...

12 Because I delivered the poor who cried out,
The fatherless and the one who had no helper.
13 The blessing of a perishing man came upon me,
And I caused the widow’s heart to sing for joy.
14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me;
My justice was like a robe and a turban.
15 I was eyes to the blind,
And I was feet to the lame.
16 I was a father to the poor,
And I searched out the case that I did not know.
17 I broke the fangs of the wicked,
And plucked the victim from his teeth.

Was not the focus of Jesus' ministry, the purpose for why He taught, the purpose for what He worked for daily similar to that of Job in his generation?

Scripture says that Job was the feet to the lame, he was a father to the poor, he was eyes to the blind, he was a blessing to the perishing man, he caused the widow's heart to sing for joy....

Whether it is Job or John or Paul, the same desires were instilled in there hearts to do the same...

Do you see how faith brings unity of purpose in all God's men and women?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/29 4:59Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sis wrote:


Quote:
Indeed men 'know' God's words, but with limited understanding. The Word does not dwell in them as become possible after Pentecost.
Quote:




Is the book of Proverbs a description of the knowledge of the mind of Christ? If God poured out His Holy Spirit on a man, what does that man have?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff




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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/29 5:10Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sis wrote:


Quote:
Yes she is... more like soon-to-be-dead flesh, actually.



In Genesis 3:14, God is speaking to Satan...In Genesis 3:15 God declares that there is enmity between Satan and the woman and enmity between his seed and the woman's Seed.

According to Scripture, can a fleshly woman stand against Satan who is a spiritual being?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/29 5:23Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

With the knowledge of Christ and being born again, Kelfer can go back into the old testament and it all becomes new. Think about it, if Kelfer did not have a revelation of Christ in him and know he had the mind of Christ, that life of Christ would be dead to him.

That is why I said, "there is no life in Proverbs without Christ born again in the believer. The writer had the Holy Spirit with him but he could not have had Him birthed, for the mystery had not been revealed to him, only the Holy Spirit and God the Father and the Word, Jesus Christ knew what was going to be new.

If Christ was not in the believer we would be living under the Law and would be trying to be pleasing to God by the works of Proverbs, not possible.

1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cr 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Phl 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

How could they, in the old testament have this mind when the did not even know His Name.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

We could not and would not be saved until Pentecost, as we are now by the believing on the name of Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Peter 1:9-12 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

"that not unto themselves, but unto us", it is revealed to us but not to them, they could only:
"Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ," we now have the answer to the searching, The Cross and the life of Christ now in us because of the birthing.


In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/11/29 15:08Profile









 Re: Born Again By What Means



Hi Jeff,

Like Phillip, I feel we are slightly going round in circles .... and I remember how tough scripture was when neither my mind was capable of understanding it, nor my spirit of hearing from God.

You know, you may have a good mind and certainly God Himself is speaking much to you, but He is not saying the same to me as He is to you, and that doesn't make what He is speaking to me wrong, or what He is showing you.... wrong.


For instance, I am so clear in my spirit that what you are attributing to Job, is really Job describing the life of God to be made manifest in the Son, that I'm amazed you don't see it. And I'm amazed you are willing to let these tiny glimpses in the Old Testament which are all woven together like a mosaic, rather than a clear picture, throw you off the central message that the Son was not reveailed in the flesh until He was born in Bethlehem. And, that that was such a cataclysmic event, that not only one angel, but a host of angels, appeared to a group of nightwatchmen with the news. This is a world-changing event of which there had never been the like previously, and which within thirty-five years had brought the Holy Spirit down from heaven 'upon' ;-) every man and woman who would believe in Him. Nothing like new birth had ever happened before, nor the gifts of the Spirit, which demonstrated this 'power from on high' which Jesus had promised the Father would send.


I will read the article which Phillip posted also.

But for both of you (and anyone else), I offer this excellent talk by Percy Gutteridge, an Englishman who had a ministry in California and other parts of the world until his death. I heard him speak once, and he made an impression.

The recording is a little noisy to start with, but it very quickly settles down. He makes quite a few observations relevant to this thread. :-)

[url=http://parbarwestward.org/Audio/Percy_Gutteridge/The_Father_Of_Lights.php]Father of Lights - 50 minutes - Rev Percy Gutteridge[/url]

 2007/11/29 19:41
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

I love the voice, our voices don't sing as yours

Good sermon to go to bed on.

Old:

Isaiah 50:10-11 Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God. Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your own fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

Walk in our own light.

New:

1 John 1:6-7 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Walk in His light.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/11/30 2:13Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sis wrote:


Quote:
For instance, I am so clear in my spirit that what you are attributing to Job, is really Job describing the life of God to be made manifest in the Son, that I'm amazed you don't see it



Job 29:1 Job further continued his discourse, and said:
2 “Oh, that I were as in months past,
As in the days when God watched over me;
3 When His lamp shone upon my head,
And when by His light I walked through darkness;
4 Just as I was in the days of my prime,
When the friendly counsel of God was over my tent;
5 When the Almighty was yet with me,
When my children were around me;
6 When my steps were bathed with cream,
And the rock poured out rivers of oil for me!
7 “When I went out to the gate by the city,
When I took my seat in the open square,
8 The young men saw me and hid,
And the aged arose and stood;
9 The princes refrained from talking,
And put their hand on their mouth;
10 The voice of nobles was hushed,
And their tongue stuck to the roof of their mouth.
11 When the ear heard, then it blessed me,
And when the eye saw, then it approved me;
12 Because I delivered the poor who cried out,
The fatherless and the one who had no helper.
13 The blessing of a perishing man came upon me,
And I caused the widow’s heart to sing for joy.
14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me;
My justice was like a robe and a turban.
15 I was eyes to the blind,
And I was feet to the lame.
16 I was a father to the poor,
And I searched out the case that I did not know.
17 I broke the fangs of the wicked,
And plucked the victim from his teeth.
18 “Then I said, ‘I shall die in my nest,
And multiply my days as the sand.
19 My root is spread out to the waters,
And the dew lies all night on my branch.
20 My glory is fresh within me,
And my bow is renewed in my hand.’
21 “Men listened to me and waited,
And kept silence for my counsel.
22 After my words they did not speak again,
And my speech settled on them as dew.
23 They waited for me as for the rain,
And they opened their mouth wide as for the spring rain.
24 If I mocked at them, they did not believe it,
And the light of my countenance they did not cast down.
25 I chose the way for them, and sat as chief;
So I dwelt as a king in the army,
As one who comforts mourners.

I have never seen this section of Scripture pointed to by other Scripture as being Messianic.(SP) No where in the NT does anyone ascribe this to Jesus...


Job 29:1 Job further continued his discourse, and said:
2 “Oh, that I were as in months past,
As in the days when God watched over me;

Do you see that this section of Scripture is placed in the past, "Oh that I were as in months past...."


Quote:
is really Job describing the life of God to be made manifest in the Son, that I'm amazed you don't see



Actually you have this backwards...it really is the Life of God manifested in the believer...

The attributes listed in Job's life are similar to all the faithful men of the Bible...

How about...

Abraham
Joseph
Barnabas
Paul
John
James
Cornelius
Boaz
Moses
Joshua
Nehemiah
David
Ezekiel
Jeremiah
Isaiah
John the Baptist
Noah

All of these men have the same testimony...God spoke to them and they lived a life pleasing to God. The workmanship of God conformed their hearts into the image of His Son's heart...They loved the Father and cared for His people.

Did you by chance listen the introduction of the teaching of Proverbs...the preacher takes the verses of Proverbs and then searches out these precepts in the life of Jesus, then he finds a parable in which these precepts are highlighted. When Jesus is teaching the multitudes, he teaches in parables that describe kingdom life. The life is found in wisdom. The our Lord is that wisdom. The question then is do we find ourselves walking in these parables?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/30 2:37Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:


Quote:
That is why I said, "there is no life in Proverbs without Christ born again in the believer. The writer had the Holy Spirit with him but he could not have had Him birthed, for the mystery had not been revealed to him, only the Holy Spirit and God the Father and the Word, Jesus Christ knew what was going to be new.



Since Christ is birthed in you, how does He impart the wisdom that is promised to all believers who have the mind of Christ?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff



_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/30 3:01Profile





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