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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born Again By What Means

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Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
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 Re:

Quote;

But, the other point is, I don't see how any Christian can think they are exempt from the effect of scripture. While I realise that some of it appears to be solely historical account, being the word of God, it has amazing power to speak through the Spirit, of eternal truth. I want every drop of that truth to penetrate my understanding, if at all possible. I don't want to come to verses and think they don't apply to me somehow. That's just my personal view of the necessity of eating the whole book - the whole word.

I understand exactly what you are saying. When Christ was birthed in us we have all the knowledge of God in us. It is the Holy Spirits responsibility show us this knowledge, waiting to rightly divide the Word of Truth that is in us precept upon precept and line upon line. It will happen. It is God who wills amd does His good pleasure in us. The more we ask the more we will receive especially when we ask with the right motive for God won't give us a stone when we ask for the Bread of Life. We are all baptized into one Spirit The Spirit of Christ. God knows exactly how much we can handle and how to keep us from being puffed up with the surpassing knowledge we have in Christ Jesus, by the thorns we receive, praise God for the Thorns.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/11/15 22:59Profile









 Re: Born Again By What Means

Quote:
I don't think that is what He meant, for it was not written to the Christian, but to Israel.

Hi Phillip,

Like you, I am struggling to put into words what I know is true, so please bear with me... as there is something I want you to see - which you may know, but have forgotten, or may not know.

When Jesus came to earth, His ministry was to the 'lost sheep of Israel'. Everything was set for Israel to be saved by their Messiah. But, what did they do? They crucified Him. Peter's speeches near the beginning of Acts explain this best, I think. We know He had to die and rise again, though, to fulfil His calling in every way, and it's because of this that the Holy Spirit is available since Pentecost and, that Gentiles can be saved. Jesus mentioned 'other sheep' but needed to impress on the disciples that there would be many who 'heard' but did not understand His teaching, as had been foretold.

Looking historically at how Israel had treated God's word - His attempts to speak to them - both at the coming of the Law of the Old Covenant, (Exo 20:19) and at the coming of the Messiah, Israel turned away. That's the basis of Paul's discussion in Romans 9... 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, [u]but also of [b]the Gentiles[/b][/u]?

Even though the New Covenant promise remains to Israel, it is by the same New Covenant promise that [i]any[/i] [u]Gentile[/u] is saved.

[i][b]None[/b][/i] of us are 'Christians' without this truth. Because Jesus had impressed upon the disciples that He had come [i]only[/i] to Israel, the whole question of whether it was ok for a Gentile to hear this gospel, was not in their heads, until Peter's experience at Joppa, (Acts 10) after which he went to Cornelius's house and the Holy Spirit fell on that Gentile household before Peter had really finished speaking, so he had to say v47 'Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost [u]as well as we[/u]?'

What I'm saying is, that any [i]Jew[/i] who is born again, experiences the same as any Gentile, of the grace of God. Our backgrounds are different - sure - but, the ministry of the Holy Spirit is the same to both Jew and Gentile - and [i]that[/i] is on the [b]basis of the work of Christ[/b], in bringing the Old Covenant to an end. (Heb 8:13) It has [u]already[/u] ended. What remains is for more of 'Israel' 'according to the flesh' (Rom 9:3) to receive it.

Does that make any more sense now?

 2005/11/16 6:53
Christinyou
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 Re:

Romans 9:25-33 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Do you see that Israel has been completely cut off?

Then Israel has nothing until the remnant that is saved specifically out of Israel is Gods.

This remnant is not the born again, for the born again son's have no title Jew or Gentile.

Galatians 4:1-7 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, (Question; Was Israel redeemed?)that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

There has to be a difference in son's and remnant of Israel, not son's. You cannot commingle son's and son's of Israel, they are not the same. Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Then the remnant that is Israel of God will receive the promises and covenants promised by God to them alone. They will be under the rule of Their King, Jesus on the Throne of David in the New Jerusalem. Back under the Law and that is when God will write His Law in their Hearts and then their righteousness will be of the same faith that we have now, which is of Christ in us the Hope of Glory. Again that is why we don't need the law written in our hearts, it is already there by the Faith of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

What justifies us if we cannot keep the Law? Christ, yes Him alone justifies us, in fact He Him has been made by the Father our Justification. What justifies us? The keeping of the Law before God, and and this makes us righteousness, that is why the fulfillment of the Law is birthed in us by Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

In Christ: Phillip




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Phillip

 2005/11/16 13:49Profile









 Re: Born Again By What Means

Quote:
There has to be a difference in son's and remnant of Israel, not son's. You cannot commingle son's and son's of Israel, they are not the same. Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness [b][u]in part[/u] is happened to Israel[/b], until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Hi Phillip,

You have quoted the very verse which supports my point, here.

Only some of Israel 'don't see'.

And still I can find no scriptural reason to say that we have become sons by a different method than those of Israel who have already become sons, or, of those who will become sons at a future date.

Unless you had received the spirit of adoption - (that is, the Holy Spirit, sent by the Father on account of your faith in the Son) - you (and I) would not be sons, today.

This is the same way anyone is born again - by receiving the incorruptible seed - the living word - which 'writes' (words are [i]written[/i]) God's laws in our hearts and minds.

I need you to explain further from scripture how a Gentile conversion is different from a Jewish one - if indeed that is what you are saying....

Is it? Please say more to clarify....?

 2005/11/16 15:53
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
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 Re:

Quote:

""Unless you had received the spirit of adoption - (that is, the Holy Spirit, sent by the Father on account of your faith in the Son) - you (and I) would not be sons, today.""

It is not my faith but the Faith of the Son of God. Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Even for Abraham it was not his faith but the faith of God Himself that God counted to him as righteousness. Now Christ has been made that righteousness in us, not counted to us but made.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. Glory in His faith not mine.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.

Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him.


Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is the Seed? If so, it was not the Holy Spirit that died on the Cross, It was Christ. He is the Seed and the birth is of that Seed from the Father. A Father cannot be a Father unless the Seed is planted in the Bride. The Holy Spirit is not the Seed, He is the barer of the Seed, just like Mary's miracle conception. We are an epistle of Christ, a living letter given to the world that His work will be accomplished on this earth. Israel could not do it, so He has to do it Himself in the son's the Father has birthed by The Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ. This is the difference I am speaking of.

The son's of the Father can do it, not by our works but by the Works of the Christ that is within us. We must separate the son's of Israel and the son's of God. In salvation since the Cross we have this Seed in us. Israel does not, for the Seed had not been planted in the ground, to bring forth much fruit, Christ The corn of wheat. Any person can come to Jesus Christ by believing the He is the Son of God and He is born again in the believer, be it Jew, Gentile or any other race, creed, or nationality, which means nothing, only the Christ In us the Hope of Glory. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, not Israel, they have been put on hold until the purpose that God sent Jesus Christ to the Cross for has been accomplished. God killed His only Begotten Son that He might gain son's by legal and by nature of Christ being birthed in us. Legal Heirs by Birth not by Law. We don't have to worry about Israel, God has already taken care of that.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/11/16 19:46Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
We know He had to die and rise again, though, to fulfil His calling in every way, and it's because of this that the Holy Spirit is available since Pentecost and, that Gentiles can be saved.



This may seem a small point and not quite on topic, but the Holy Spirit was breathed into His diciples on the eve of His resurrection (John 20:21) a good 50 days prior to Pentecost.

We have to understand the the Spirit is not separate from Christ, He is the Spirit of Christ and He was inbreathed into His diciples as the Spirit of the resurrected Christ regenerating them and comming into them as their indwelling Life.

The Spirit which was poured out at pentecost, while the same Spirit, He was poured out as the Spirit of the Ascended Lord of Glory. The one indwelling is related to Life while the other, the baptism of the Spirit is related to "being clothed with Power from on High."

IN John 20:21 the Lord Jesus breathed into them saying, "recieve the Holy Spirit' While on the day of pentecost the Spirit "sat upon them" in cloven tounges of fire. The one is internal, the other external as an enviornment. To be baptised is to be "immersed" and the baptism of the Spirit is an immersion in the Spirit as a clothing and environment. It is to be "clothed with power from on High" That is, the power of the Ascended Christ. But to be regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit is to have Him within us as our Life, Christ in you, the hope of glory. And that occurs when we repent and believe into the Lord Jesus and are born of His Spirit to be children of God with His Life and Nature.

We have today both aspects of the Spirit. That is we have the indwlling Spirit through regeneration as our Life to sanctify us and to conform us to the image of Christ, and we have the Spirit available to us as the Spirit of Power for the accomplishing of His work in preaching the gospel and in building up the church.

One is related to resurrection and Life, the other to ascension and Power.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/17 11:47Profile
Graftedbranc
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Posts: 619


 Re: Amen Phillip

Just wanted to say "Amen" Phillip. I like your posts.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/17 12:08Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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 Re:

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:

Quote:
This may seem a small point and not quite on topic, but the Holy Spirit was breathed into His diciples on the eve of His resurrection (John 20:21) a good 50 days prior to Pentecost.




No small point at all, in fact, this is actually in line with this thread. The Scripture you have sighted in John 20:21 is clarified by Luke 24:

Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

Luke 24:46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high

Do you see that He opened their understanding that they might comprehend Scripture? (verse 45) Do you see the means by which God uses to save those who would hear?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/17 12:32Profile
Christinyou
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John 14:16-20 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter;
that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. This reads in the Greek.

John 14:16-20 And I will pray the Father , and he shall give you another Comforter , that he may abide with you (This word with has the same meaning as in, as a part of) for ever ; Even the Spirit of truth ; whom the world cannot receive , because it seeth him not , neither knoweth him : but ye know him ; for he dwelleth with you , and shall be in you . I will not leave you comfortless : I will come to you . Yet a little while , and the world seeth me no more ; but ye see me : because I live , ye shall live also . At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father , and ye in me , and I in you .

This word is the Holy Spirit, parakletos another Comforter , This is who the Father will send, not in the place of or making One of the two but a separate entity besides Jesus Himself. He then says He Himself Jesus Christ will not leave us comfort less; comfortless; orphanos Which means an orphan, or fatherless, Then Jesus Says He will come also and make sure we know the He is in the Father and The Father in Him and us in Him, which leaves us not Fatherless but one with Christ and The Father, and The Parakletos, which is our Teacher, You cannot make the Holy Spirit Christ or Christ the Holy Spirit or The Father either of the other Two. They are one God with three individual ministrations of the manifestation of God. Has Christ come? Do we know that He is one with the Father and One with us? Yes we have all Three In One living in us, that is what Paul specifically said in all His epistles. "Christ in me the Hope of Glory."

We must not commingle law and grace, and we cannot commingle What God Has set forth as His Plan for Salvation by making the Holy Spirit Christ and the Christ being the Holy Spirit. Christ is life unto God the Father where we live and move and have our being, "No One can come to the Father but by Me." The Holy Spirit is our Heavenly Revelatory Person of the God Head to reveal the Truth of Christ in us and the Sealer of the Seal that makes us Christ Ones. Ephesians 1:12-13 That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

This will upset a lot of people, but the truth got Jesus Killed for this Truth. There are some in my church that feel the same way about me.

John 20:21-22 Then said Jesus to them again , Peace be unto you : as my Father hath sent me , even so send I you . And when he had said this , he breathed on them, and saith unto them , Receive ye the Holy Ghost :
If you look closely Jesus breather on them not in them and they received the power upon them to accomplish the commission they had been given. They still had the Holy Spirit to come at Pentecost and then The Holy Spirit would be in them not on them, Jesus claimed this to be true when He said, "John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." The Holy Spirit can only be in you when the Father answered The Prayer of His Son, and that was at Pentecost.


In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/11/17 18:58Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
If you look closely Jesus breather on them not in them and they received the power upon them to accomplish the commission they had been given.



In the Greek, the work is "into". The RcV translates John 20:21-22 this way: Then Jesus said, peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, so I also send you. And when He has said this, He breathed into them and said, "Recive the Holy Spirit"

Brother, I believe you have got things reversed. It is here that the Lord Jesus breathed the Spirit into them. It is in every case concerning 'Pentecost' that the words, "upon" clothed with, baptised with, sat upon, etc. are used.

I like the footnote in the Recovery Version:

22 This was the Spirit expected in 7:39 and promised 14:16-17,26; 15:26; and 16:7-8,13. Hence , the Lord's breathing of the Holy Spirit into HIs diciples was the fulfillment of His promise of the Holy Spirit as the comforter. This fulfillment differs from the one in Actes 2:1-4, which was the fulfillment of the Father's promise in Luke 24:49. In Acts 2 the Spirit as a rushing, violent wind came as power upon the diciples for their work (Acts 1:8). Here the Spirit as breath was breathed as life into the diciples for their life. By breathing the Spirit into the diciples, the Lord imparted Himself into them as life and everything. Thus, all that He had spoken in chs. 14-16 could be fulfilled. " Footnote John 20:21 RcV

The fruit of this "inbreathing of the Spirit" is seen in the prayer and "one accord" which preceeded Pentecost.

After breathing Himself into them as the Spirit the Lord's physical appearance to them became less and less frequent. He was weaning them from His physical manifestation to knowing him inwardly as the indwelling Spirit.

2 Cor 3:17 And the Lord is the Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom

1 Cor 15:45 The First Adam became a Living Soul, the Last Adam became a Life Giving Spirit.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/18 9:13Profile





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