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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born Again By What Means

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 Re: Born Again By What Means


Jeff said

Quote:
Do you see again that you have added to Scripture?

Only the love of the truth can deliver one from the deception of man's doctrines...

Brother Jeff,

Would you say that this statement (following), is unscriptural?

[i]'The Holy Spirit was given to make the life of Jesus Christ real in your flesh.'[/i] GW North


Would you be happier with Phillip's choice of words if he used the picture from Galatians 4:19

[i]'My little children, of whom I [Paul] travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,' - ?[/i]



In your opinion, what is the significance - which must be avoided - (apart from the contexts) of the difference between Phillip using his form of words, GW North using his form of words and Paul using his form of words?


I ask, because I wonder if this may be a case of 'the letter killeth', when we do all know exactly what Phillip is getting at (I believe).

However, I'm anxious not to miss an opportunity to learn from you.

 2007/11/3 22:26
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Hi Sis

Quote:
'My little children, of whom I [Paul] travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,' - ?



In the Scripture you have sighted above, If brother Phillips understanding was correct, then Christ (The Seed as Phillip sees it), died in the individuals that Paul is trying to restore...

Quote:
'The Holy Spirit was given to make the life of Jesus Christ real in your flesh.' GW North



I believe the Holy Spirit regenerates the spirit of man not his flesh. The flesh is corrupt and will die.

Secondly, Jesus prayed to the Father...

Jhn 17:20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jhn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

What is Jesus praying for here in the Scripture above? How are "they" made one as "we are one?"

Your brother in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/3 22:53Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

""In the Scripture you have sighted above, If brother Phillips understanding was correct, then Christ (The Seed as Phillip sees it), died in the individuals that Paul is trying to restore...""

No Jeff, We were crucified with Christ, see yourself on the Cross as dead as Christ was, and that to the sin of the whole world.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is not the Seed dying in the individual but to live unto life in Christ, alive unto God our Father by the Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Christ died not in the individual but for the whole world, that if they believe they may have eternal life.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul's travail was over those that could not see this life in Christ and wanting more than his own life to see Jesus Christ formed in them. Birthed in the Spirit of Christ, quickened in the flesh by the Holy Spirit, unto this new life in the flesh, soul and Spirit. Our flesh had to be quickened to contain the nature and Life of God in Christ Jesus, or we would simply cease to exist in the Flesh. The Holiness of Christ in you the Hope of Glory is the answer and our flesh, soul and spirit now contains this Life that God intended before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4-12 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Christ liveth in me and you also: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/11/3 23:58Profile
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 Re:

Quote:

""I believe the Holy Spirit regenerates the spirit of man not his flesh. The flesh is corrupt and will die""

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

How does it die? Being crucified with Christ unto resurrection, regeneration and glorification because of the Christ Seed come in the flesh of men, whom on resurrection morning our mortal bodies will become immortal just like the Glorious body of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Romans 8:10-17 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together.

We don't live after the flesh, we only live in the flesh that by the Christ in us we can live after the Spirit, by the Spirit of Christ in us and the Teaching of the Holy Spirit by renewing our minds to the Mind of Christ.

Do you believe that Jesus is Come in the Flesh now, that is our flesh?

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

This Temple is the Temple of the Holy Spirit and Christ is the Only Chief Priest in it. If Christ is in this temple then He has come in the flesh of men.

Has He come in your flesh?

Christ Liveth in me: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/11/4 0:27Profile









 Re: Born Again By What Means


Hello Jeff,

Here is a start.

Thank you for answering my questions. I believe Phillip has made reasonable scriptural clarification on his understanding of Gal 4:19, although he did not touch on the controversy Paul is addressing, between law and grace, where the law 'the letter' was killing them, but through grace they could find faith again to walk in the Spirit.

In Phillip's second reply, he addressed [i]how[/i] they would walk in the Spirit - that is, through their flesh. It is only as we bring the power of our bodies into line with the power of the Spirit within us, that our life looks anything like Christ's.

When Christ Himself said 'A body hast thou prepared me' (Heb 10:5), He was not, initially, referring to the Church, although we have taken over that role now.

You said

Quote:
The flesh is corrupt and will die.

This is true. The sentence of death on Adam passes to all his descendents equally, before they are born.

So, the gospel is, that while death is impending on us, we can recognise that our actions bear out the effect of sin on human nature - that we cannot prevent or control it - and that we are bound to die anyway, and we can, through faith in the death of Jesus Christ [i][b]for[/i][/b] us, begin to [i][b]live[/i][/b], eternally - while still in our 'mortal flesh'.

What happens when our body dies is, that our spirit and soul immediately become clothed with an immortal body (1 Cor 15), in which we will dwell for the rest of eternity, if we are Christ's.

I don't believe that 'in my flesh dwells no good thing' is supposed to be taken as the final state of our flesh. Paul has begun his thesis at what we have as Romans 1:16, and the chapter divisions are abitrary. He is making one whole statement, leading to the 'Therefore' at the start of our chapter 8, where he continues alluding to 'the flesh', explaining how the terms of our engagement with the flesh have been altered:

10 And if Christ [i]be[/i] in you, the body [i]is[/i] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [i]is[/i] life because of righteousness.

This righteousness is Christ, or the Spirit would not be able to dwell in us. Christ is Life and Health itself, and I believe we can expect our bodies to be affected by His presence [u]now[/u], as His Spirit gives resurrection life to our spirit (and soul), until when our natural body gives up the ghost of natural life.

I believe the word 'mortal' (Rom 8:11) bears out Phillip's explanation.


I believe this is all compatible with John 17, but I'm not sure which aspect of being one you most want addressed in a response.

Quote:
What is Jesus praying for here in the Scripture above?

How are "they" made one as "we are one?"

Here are some scriptures. If they are not specific enough or require explanation, please tell me.

1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; [u]and have been [b]all[/b] made to drink into [b]one Spirit[/b][/u].

Ephesians 4
4 [i]There is[/i] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who [i]is[/i] above all, and through all, and in you all.

Hebrews 12
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

[the sin = unbelief: Heb 3, 4, 11]

 2007/11/4 8:03
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
No Jeff, We were crucified with Christ, see yourself on the Cross as dead as Christ was, and that to the sin of the whole world.



Paul already testified that the Galatians started out in the Spirit. But now they returned back to living according to the flesh. This is why Paul said that he had to work again to form Christ in them...

What does this mean to you when Paul teaches that these born again believers returned to the ways of the old man?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/5 2:02Profile
rookie
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 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
How does it die? Being crucified with Christ unto resurrection, regeneration and glorification because of the Christ Seed come in the flesh of men, whom on resurrection morning our mortal bodies will become immortal just like the Glorious body of our Lord Jesus Christ.



Yes it is yet to come isn't it? And if the Lord shall tarry will not our bodies die because of it's corrupt nature?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/5 2:05Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
We don't live after the flesh, we only live in the flesh that by the Christ in us we can live after the Spirit, by the Spirit of Christ in us and the Teaching of the Holy Spirit by renewing our minds to the Mind of Christ.



Paul teaches this about this life we live...

2Cor. 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

What does Paul mean when he talks about our nakedness?

And does Paul say the "Seed" is our guarantee in this life or the Spirit?

Your brother in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/5 2:11Profile
rookie
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 Re:

Sis wrote:

Quote:
In Phillip's second reply, he addressed how they would walk in the Spirit - that is, through their flesh. It is only as we bring the power of our bodies into line with the power of the Spirit within us, that our life looks anything like Christ's.



I am leading a group on Sunday nights where we are discussing "The Motivations of our Hearts." If one were to study the Scripture on the heart, one would find that Scripture assigns the heart as the source from which all action flows...

We know that in the Parable of the Sower and the seed, that there are 3 elements present. First we know that the seed is the word of God. This is not a story where some of the seed is good and some of the seed is bad. We know that it is Christ who sows the word of God. Secondly we know that the word of God is sown generously. A earthly farmer would not waist his seed along a path or in rocky soil. Yet the Sower in this parable sows extravagantly. There is no change, or variation in these two precepts.

Then we have the third precept of this parable. We are told that the soil represents the hearts of man. In this precept we find that the condition of the soil, the condition of man's heart varies. And it is this parable which Jesus says unlocks the meaning of all other parables.

Mark 4:13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?

I lay this groundwork to speak to what you stated above...again

Quote:
that is, through their flesh. It is only as we bring the power of our bodies into line with the power of the Spirit within us,



This is the promise that God gives to all men...

Proverbs 1:

23 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.

There is nothing in the flesh, even after one is born from above, that changes anything about our nakedness. God does not work on our flesh. He pours out His spirit on us to make His words known to us. The power of the Spirit of God is directed at the "heart" of man. The power of the Spirit is meant to break up the hardness of the heart. The 'tool" that God uses is His word. We as believers are to compare the motivations of our hearts to the word of God.

There was only one kingdom in power when God created Adam and Eve. A second kingdom came into power when God said to Satan...

Gen. 3:15 "And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;.."

We all have suffered the corruption of the second kingdom. The thoughts of our minds and the motivations of our hearts have been formed by Satan's spiritual influence in each of our lives. But what does Scripture say to man?

Deut. 30:14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

Rom. 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):

Likewise we hear in Scripture from another place...

Proverbs 1:20 Wisdom calls aloud outside;
She raises her voice in the open squares.
21 She cries out in the chief concourses,
At the openings of the gates in the city
She speaks her words:

The Spirit of God permeates this fallen world with the word of God, "Wisdom calls aloud...she speaks her words."

Peter acknowledges the same when he says to Jesus...

John 6:68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

This is the incorruptible seed from which our hearts are made soft and deep. This is the incorruptibe seed that is given to us by the Spirit to renew our minds. Each of us have suffered from self rule. The manifestation of sin is different in each of us. One man's corruption manifests itself in the lust of the flesh; another in the lust of the eyes; in another the pride of life. Only Jesus our High Priest by the use of the Holy Spirit knows the words to speak to us in our daily struggles. Only He is able to heal our hearts and renew our minds in a way that is able to perfect our love for God. And this is eternal life. Without the word of God our hearts and minds would continue to grow in the likeness of the nature of our former father Lucifer.

Your brother in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/5 3:32Profile
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 Re:

Sis wrote:

Quote:
I believe this is all compatible with John 17, but I'm not sure which aspect of being one you most want addressed in a response.



John 17:
8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

Here Jesus points to the fact that His disciples have received the word of God. And that they have been convinced that Jesus was sent by the Father to speak these words...

14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

Here we see that because of the word of God, the world hates them. We see the outworking of what God spoke to Satan in Genesis 3:15 manifesting here in Jesus' testimony. We see that His disciples have taken on the same nature as Christ's therefore there is now enmity between the world and His disciples.

Now this is how Jesus prays for those who received His word.

16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

The point of His prayer is that the word of God continue to seperate them from the power of Satan...because Jesus also prays in verse 15....

15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

And then Jesus closes with this thought...

John 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

Jesus wants His Father to share His love with those Jesus died for, the same love that He shared with Jesus His Son.

"And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them,..."

And then Jesus finishes...and I in them.”


As we walk according to the Holy Spirit we will learn to love the Father as Jesus loves the Father...

Psa. 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet
And a light to my path.

1Cor. 2:9 But as it is written:
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

2Cor. 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Become complete. Be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Col. 2:2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,

Our hearts are knitted together in love, a love that comes with "understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ."

2Th. 3:5 Now may the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the patience of Christ.

This is how we know we become "one" in Christ.

12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

1Cor. 13:13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Your brother in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/5 4:14Profile





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