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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born Again By What Means

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psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Brother Jeff, The o.t. priesthood was of arron established through moses.
Jesus priesthood established through John the baptist, was from melchesidic-David ,with David as the forerunner of Jesus.
The priesthood changed from arron [old] to new Jesus melchesidic.

Do you agree?

David

 2007/10/26 10:40Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 King David and God the Holy Spirit ...



[b]Bro Jeff you wrote;
"Psa. 51:11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

I wonder first, how David knew the Holy Spirit.

I wonder secondly, how David knew how important the Holy Spirit was to his life.

I wonder thirdly, how others in the OT wondered about this Scripture.

Have you who live on this side of Christ ever wondered about these things?[/b]


--- i love King David, especially because i can identify with his emotions towards God ... There are times when i'm so happy/joyous in Him it's ecstacy ... Then there are also those times when i'm anguishing to Him for one thing or another ...

Anyhow to the first two questions ... i believe David knew Holy Spirit historically, religiously and then personally and most importantly intimately ...

[b]Gen.1[/b]
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

[b]Gen.6[/b]
[3] And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

[b]Gen.41[/b]
[38] And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

[b]Exod.31[/b]
[3] And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

[b]Exod.35[/b]
[31] And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;

[b]Num.11[/b]
[29] And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD's people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

[b]Num.24[/b]
[2] And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.

[b]Num.27[/b]
[18] And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;

[b]Judg.3[/b]
[10] And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the LORD delivered Chushan-rishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushan-rishathaim.

[b]Judg.6[/b]
[34] But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet; and Abi-ezer was gathered after him.

[b]Judg.11[/b]
[29] Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.

[b]Judg.13[/b]
[25] And the Spirit of the LORD began to move him at times in the camp of Dan between Zorah and Eshtaol.

[b]Judg.14[/b]
[6] And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done.
[19] And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle. And his anger was kindled, and he went up to his father's house.

[b]Judg.15[/b]
[14] And when he came unto Lehi, the Philistines shouted against him: and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and the cords that were upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands.

[b]1Sam.10[/b]
[6] And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
[10] And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.

[b]1Sam.11[/b]
[6] And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly.

[b]1Sam.16[/b]
[13] Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
[14] But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.


Personally i think some of the OT saints had some understandings of the Spirit/spirit realm that we don't quite measure up to today ... Plus it seems that OT saints, especially since many of them experienced tangible super-natural interventions, had a sureness in/of the spirit world that many in our modern day Christian faith perhaps struggle with unless we just believe the Bibles word for it (even more blessed are we who believe and have not seen) of whom our battle is against, and Whom has indwealt us to the standing up of all tasks needing to be done in our faith ...

To the third question i wonder if they thought it such a hard question to answer being that Israelite history, especially earlier, is so full of super-natural events, and so much calling attention to God's Spirit being necessary especially in higher callings of leadership ... i think it's the same way today that Holy Spirit is the caller of higher leadership amongst God's people, i just wonder how many folk called really, really believe such in such a way as David, then also there were always those weird folk, God's prophets, whom He was always sending via His Spirit in super-natural manifestation and confirmation to such men as David ...

And as to the forth question, i may not have specifically wondered about this question (especially since i've never thought that David didn't know who Holy Spirit is), but i am a "wonderer" about all things spiritual, and everything that i see always brings me back in finality of a "wonderment" of God ... As a saint once told me, i'm preoccupied with God (i'm always wondering what He's up to and do boldly ask - Jer. 33:3 is my life-verse), and as i told him back, i believe only because He was first preoccupied with me ... i guess a person can be preoccupied with God, scripture, and His will all on ones own, but in my case i believe it to be a "calling" from way before my mothers womb, a Holy Ghost empowerment just waiting to happen since before the setting of the foundation of the world ... i know a lotta saints who think my thinking way over the top, but to me the same history that made David know who Holy Ghost is, and His ultimate importance in our lives, is also my history under the new covenant ... When i think of Holy Spirit i think of Him as God my Best Friend, and ever present Companion, He whom our Savior, of the Father, sent here to comfort us and to guide us into all truth ... Everytime i see a dove i go off into awe of wonderment about such gentleness from the ultimate Power of the universe, God the Holy Spirit, He whom at the whim of the Father, and the word of the Son, produced ALL seen and enseen - i get filled up everytime i think of this ... just mind blowingly amazing!

Blessings in God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, from Whom all blessings flow! :knockedout: ---

PS - i just wanted to add in the vein of "Born Again by What Means" that in the back of my old Ryrie Study Bible is a scriptural listing of the part that God the Holy Spirit plays not only in our initial salvation, but that of our spiritual upkeep also ... Holy Spirit can do a lot in, and with us towards the lifting up of the Lamb, if we'd only stop grieving and quenching Him so much ...

When i think of God the Father i think of myself as a son, and what good son would want to wilfully disappoint his good Father ... When i think of God the Son i think of Him as my Husband, and me a part of His Bride, and being married before i know what i expected of my wife, so towards Him i think what kind of good wife would want to wilfully dissapoint her husband, especially One that has died and rose for me ... And of God the Holy Spirit again as i said i think of Him as God my Best Best Friend, and i think to myself what kind of a friend would want to wilfully disappoint such a good, and gentle friend as He, who only has my best interest at core into doing to me what He's heard from heaven, that being tranforming me into the image of Christ, for God's ultimate glory ... Amen





 2007/10/26 16:00Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re: King David and God the Holy Spirit ...

To Psalm 1,

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

In this section of Scripture we have this testimony from Stephen. He testifies that just as this present generation resisted the Holy Spirit, so did those generations that preceded them. Stephen also speaks of the coming of Jesus who is the "Just One."

Peter when preaching to the jews also refers to Jesus in this way...

Acts 3:14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,

Now we know that apostles preached the gospel through the use of the Old Testament. When Peter and Stephen refer to Jesus as the Holy One, the Just One, they are doing this with purpose. They seek to identify Jesus with the God of the Old Testament...

2Kings 19:22 “Whom have you reproached and blasphemed?
Against whom have you raised your voice,
And lifted up your eyes on high?
Against the Holy One of Israel.

Sennacherib king of Assyria, went up against the Holy One of Israel.

Job 6:10 Then I would still have comfort;
Though in anguish I would exult,
He will not spare;
For I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.

Here we see that Job speaks of the Holy One who spoke to him.

Psa. 16:10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

We know that the Holy One in this Scripture is without doubt, Jesus.

Psa. 71:22 Also with the lute I will praise You—
And Your faithfulness, O my God!
To You I will sing with the harp,
O Holy One of Israel.

Here we see that praise is given to the Holy One of Israel.

Psalm 78:
40 How often they provoked Him in the wilderness,
And grieved Him in the desert!
41 Yes, again and again they tempted God,
And limited the Holy One of Israel.

Paul writes of Psalm 78...

3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Do you see that Asaph and Paul are speaking of the same thing?

You see before the earthly priesthood was established in Aaron there was another Priesthood in existence...

Heb. 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

In the above Scripture we find that Moses was a faithful servant in His house. But the house was built by another...the One who is over His own house.

Heb 7:
9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

Here we are told that when Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedeck, that the Levitical priesthood which would not be established for another 430 years, pay their tithes to Melchizedek.

The Priestly Order of Melchizedek preceded the earthly priesthood, for in fact, this priesthood was established before the foundation of this world...

Heb 9:
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Do you see what the Scriptures say here..."He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world"

Here we see that Jesus' intercession as High Priest began with the foundation of this world...

Just some thoughts


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/10/29 2:05Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re: King David and God the Holy Spirit ...

Brother Rahman...

I need to reflect on what you wrote here...to come alongside...

Your brother in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/10/29 2:11Profile









 Re: Born Again By What Means


Jeff asked

Quote:
I wonder first, how David knew the Holy Spirit.

I've always thought it was in the same way as other prophets, but, it was not his only gifting. I know he was a king, but Saul had receiced prophecy as part of his anointing, and he was at the changeover from the priests carrying most governmental function (under God), to the kings taking that funtion over. Naturally, in spiritual terms, God would not have left a king witout direct access to Himself, as He always intended to be the source of (the priests') wisdom for the nation.

We see how the priesthood had gone to rot, in the way both Eli's and Samuel's sons had behaved - abusing their offices. They were completely unsuitable for national leadership. I suppose this is one reason the people thought they'd be better off with a king.

Much later, we see Caiaphas prophesying as part of his role, to Israel.

Scary.

 2007/10/30 7:47
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Rookie , very interesting. I think we are starting from 2 different places. We know the priesthood changed from levitical,[ arron] to the davidic or melshesidic priesthood through Jesus.
the ot points to the new. not visa versa.
The animal sacrifices of the ot pointed to the living sacrifice Jesus.
The typeology of 'perfect without blemish' pointed to Jesus.
So to me we need to start with the anti type and use the type as illustration and understanding.
Also i tend to dissagree with the idea that he stood as a priest before he became a priest.

I dont think there is enough on melchesidic to form that scenerio
to me melchesidic is somewhat of a mystery

we know he was a priest and we know he recieved tithes.

some place him as Jesus some just a priest.

I dont know.

....David

 2007/10/30 13:18Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

The Holy Spirit is not Christ, that is the big mistake of the Church, the Body of Christ. The Holy Spirit did not hang on the Cross. The Holy Spirit is not the Seed of Christ Born Again in the Believer, He is the teacher of the Truth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and in Him is salvation and in Him only. The Holy Spirit is the seal of this act of God, by placing The Incorruptable Seed of God the Father in the believer.

Who sent Him and who is Him? Who tells Him what to speak and who does He speak of? Who is He the comforter from? Who is not going to leave us alone? 1-3 The Holy Spirit is the worker. 4. Is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

God sends Christ Jesus, birthed in the believer. Jesus Christ sends the Holy Spirit. They are the same in the God Head, that is One God, but they are not the same in our salvation and How they work in our life, that is our new life in Christ. It is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us, This is our Life. The Holy Spirit is the Teacher of that Life.

Christ, Liveth in me:
The Holy Spirit teaches me this: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/11/1 2:18Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother David wrote:

Quote:
Also i tend to dissagree with the idea that he stood as a priest before he became a priest.



We know from Scripture that Melchizedek blessed Abraham 430 years before the earthly priesthood of Aaron was established. Melchizedek, both King and Priest, served the God Most High.

Heb. 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For He testifies:
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

In the above Scripture, in verse 15, we find that Jesus, "in the likeness of Melchizedek,"..."not according to the law of a fleshly commandment" arose at the end of the ages to demonstrate "the power of an endless life."

Heb. 5:5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”

Heb. 5:6 As He also says in another place:
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;
7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

In this section of Scripture we find that the Father has declared two things, one, Jesus is the Son. Two, He is a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. These two declarations are quoted by the writer of Hebrews from the OT.

We also know that Christ's priesthood, the blood of His sacrifice, the offering He gave for those who lived by faith extended back to the very beginning of man.

Hebrews 9:

15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Here we are told that "He is the Mediator of the new covenant." And what purpose does He serve in the Father's plan? We see in verse 15 "...for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant..."

Who are all those who are found guilty "of the transgressions under the first covenant"?

To further this point...in

Heb. 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

Here we see that the "gospel was preached" ..."to them." But in that generation we find that the "gospel" ..."did not profit them" because they chose not to obey the word of God...

Heb. 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

They "did not enter because of disobedience," How were they declared disobedient? They did not heed "His voice"

Stephen in Acts declares

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

Those who are disobedient "resist the Holy Spirit."

Now according to Jesus, what is the ministry of the Holy Spirit?

John 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

The work of the Holy Spirit has never changed. The word's He speaks glorifies Jesus who is...

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Going back to Hebrews...our High Priest because He did not officiate according to the priestly order of Aaron, sacrificed only once for all...if His priesthood was like Aaron's then He would have had to "suffer often since the foundation of the world."

25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

"At the end of the ages," in the Father plan, "He has appeared to put away sin" that was committed, the transgressions under the first covenant."

The power of the Trinity did not start 1975 years ago. The power of the Trinity, the Godhead, began in this world when...

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Gen. 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Jesus is the light of the world....

In Christ
Jeff



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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/1 2:49Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:



Quote:
The Holy Spirit is not Christ, that is the big mistake of the Church, the Body of Christ. The Holy Spirit did not hang on the Cross. The Holy Spirit is not the Seed of Christ Born Again in the Believer, He is the teacher of the Truth that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and in Him is salvation and in Him only. The Holy Spirit is the seal of this act of God, by placing The Incorruptable Seed of God the Father in the believer.



There are many confusing things here in what you stated...

The Holy Spirit is the means by which God gives birth to the sons of God. The Holy Spirit enables us to know Christ. Our hearts and minds are renewed by the Holy Spirits work in us. The outcome of this work is that we are "conformed into the image of His Son." The incorrupible seed in the word of God, the written Scriptures. As Jesus demonstrated His love of the Father we too will learn from Him in the way that we must go...

1 John 1:

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

The "love of God is perfected" in those who "keeps His word." Only by following the "helper" can we learn how to love God as Christ loved the Father.

Jesus loved the Father through obeying the Holy Spirit, and whoever claims to be born from above....6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/1 3:04Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sis wrote:

Quote:
I've always thought it was in the same way as other prophets, but, it was not his only gifting.



Heb. 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”


God speaks in all generations. "Today, if you will hear His voice, "Do not harden your hearts."



Quote:
God would not have left a king witout direct access to Himself, as He always intended to be the source of (the priests') wisdom for the nation.



Solomon wrote of this wisdom...

Proverb 1:

20 Wisdom calls aloud outside;
She raises her voice in the open squares.
21 She cries out in the chief concourses,
At the openings of the gates in the city
She speaks her words:
22 “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning,
And fools hate knowledge.
23 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.

How does Solomon describe how God imparts wisdom to men?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/11/1 3:16Profile





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