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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born Again By What Means

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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
So, The Holy Spirit our Teacher in our soul, heart. The Spirit of Christ our new Life in Christ our regenerated nature, and God the Father ruling and reigning over the complete person, by the power of His Spirit that controls our learning and the power of the Spirit of Christ that is in us. The Holy Spirit does all the work, The Spirit is our new life, Christ finished His work at the Cross. The Body quickened to contain this Deity and the seed that must be planted in the ground, die and then on resurrection morning a new body that will produce the fruit of the Seed that is Born Again in us, The Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ and we will be just like Him.



I here what you are saying yet, we are given many many examples of men who have strayed from the truth, they have wandered away. This is just one example,

Revelation 2:

‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

In this example they have Christ, yet their love has deminished, how is this possible according to your teaching Brother Phillip?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/3/6 15:29Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sister Diane wrote:

Quote:
he Holy Spirit does all the work, The Spirit is our new life, Christ finished His work at the Cross.



In 2 Timothy, Paul instructs Timothy

2Tim. 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Paul exhorts Timothy to share in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God who has saved us and called with a [b]holy calling...[/b]

Then Paul speaks of situations which cause him to suffer. He warn Timothy that he will also experience this suffering.

We are all called with a holy calling. For those who are like minded...

2 Timothy 2:
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Then Paul identifies two men who through their teaching have overthrown the faith of some.

16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

What might Paul mean when he says, "18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past;

Could he mean that the effects of this teaching causes some to see no need to "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God?" Might the teaching of the prefection that comes with the ressurection be misapplied to one's life as he lives in the corrupt body? Might one be miss led into thinking that Salvation is complete with a one time prayer? What might the result of such teaching look like?

1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You see these men teach a form of godliness, maybe a doctrine which secretly dismisses the responsibility of man to obey the leading of the Holy Spirit. For those who teach, we are already perfect, is the manifestation of this teaching reflected in John words:

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

How is faith overthrown?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/3/7 15:26Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Hellloo Rookie,

"""In this example they have Christ, yet their love has deminished, how is this possible according to your teaching Brother Phillip?"""

The reason is they don't know what I am trying to teach. They are saved as by fire, by believing on the Lord Jesus, yes even to those that believe on His Name. Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: They don't know that Jesus Christ Himself Is in them and they keep trying to be pleasing to the Father by what they do and never find who they are. The more they try the more they fail, and even if they clean up their own lives it is still not the Oneness that God wants us to have in Christ Jesus, Who is not born again in them and they are saved. Then comes your favorite parable; Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. No where in the parable of the Sower does it say that they loose their salvation because they believed on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, just like the ones that have fallen away; Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. It does not say that they loose their salvation it says they cannot repent, because of Satan's lies, the seed sown on all other ground in the parable, which leads them astray.

This is the Churches fault, because they are still teaching works righteousness, again works righteousness not Christ righteousness. I could go on and on but I think you get the picture, do do do and become and don't don't don't and be pleasing. Our righteousness is not in what we do but in whom we have been exchanged and now are the son's of God in Christ Jesus. Amen. Because God has made Him righteousness in us. 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. If we do and don't because of who we are, fruit will come forth by the who we are, Christ in us the hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/3/7 17:55Profile
Christinyou
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Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"""he Holy Spirit does all the work, The Spirit is our new life, Christ finished His work at the Cross."""

The Holy Spirit is the Teacher and Power of the Life of Christ in us. The Holy Spirit is not the Life, it was not the Holy Spirit that died on the Cross and is born again in us, it Christ, He is the one that died and gives us life.

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

It does not say that eternal life is in the Holy Spirit it says that eternal life is in Christ. It does not say the he that has the Holy Spirit has life, it says that he that has the Son has life.

The Holy Spirit is our Teacher of this life and He will always teach us this Christ forever.

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Christ is the Life, The Holy Spirit is the Teacher thereof.


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Phillip

 2006/3/7 18:20Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
"""he Holy Spirit does all the work, The Spirit is our new life, Christ finished His work at the Cross."""
The Holy Spirit is the Teacher and Power of the Life of Christ in us. The Holy Spirit is not the Life, it was not the Holy Spirit that died on the Cross and is born again in us, it Christ, He is the one that died and gives us life.


Phillip,
I think the quote was yours origionally (not mine, as Rookie said) And, I appreciate your clarification, Phillip.


Quote:
Being conformed to His death will free us from that which tempts us. If we die to this world, will not our hearts be free from the fear of men? If we die to this world, will it not mean that the lustful pleasures that we once sought no longer satisfy.


We can safely assume that to the extent that we struggle with sin, we are not conformed to his death.

Rookie, Many thanks for the references related to the "Law of the Spirit." Clearly, the life lived according the the Law of the Spirit is radically different.
The law of the Spirit opperates by an entirely different power, different set of values, producing a different outlook, different citizenship, different way of relating to fellow humans (the law of love), different perception, (eternal not temporal, spiritual not natural).... Spiritual laws supercede, even defy natural laws.... They produce abundant life = gain rather than loss (death). ... ultimately eternal life.
By the law of the Spirit we can understand God's ways, KNOW him.... receive divine enlightenment, prophetic revelation, we are empowered to die to "self", .....

and much more

Diane


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Diane

 2006/3/7 19:56Profile
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
No where in the parable of the Sower does it say that they loose their salvation because they believed on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, just like the ones that have fallen away; Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. It does not say that they loose their salvation it says they cannot repent, because of Satan's lies, the seed sown on all other ground in the parable, which leads them astray.


I feel that a huge assumption is made when we say that those who have heard the word, had some fall on the soil of their hearts, tasted the goodness of the Spirit. were born again. The Bible does not say that.

Jesus pointed out that many Christians have a false sense of salvation. It should not be surprising then that Scripture frequently warns us to check ourselves out; for example, Jesus said,

“See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us – even eternal life” I John 2:24

Paul wrote:

"Examine yourselves to see if your faith is really genuine. Test yourselves. If you cannot tell that Jesus Christ is among you, it means you have failed the test." 2 Corinthians 13:5 (NLT)

Peter wrote:

“… be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome in the eternal kingdom of our Lord.” 2 Pet. 1:10

Clearly, although spiritual birth can only come from God and be sustained by his Spirit, we are responsible to make sure that it is genuine. We are commanded to check for evidence in light of Scripture (not according to our own standards).

In Scripture we learn that initial experiences with God's truth and light does not assure eternal salvation, as Jesus’ parable of the sower and the seed reveals:

“… the rocky places is the man who hears the word (seed) and at once receives it with joy, but since he has no ROOT, he lasts only a short time. When trouble and persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.” see Matt. 13:18-23

“Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word (seed) from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved .

Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no ROOT. They believe for a while, but in time of testing they fall away…
…the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by perseverance produce a crop.” Lk. 8:11-15

Imagine that you once planted an oak seed in your garden. Then you leave it for many years and get occupied with life’s affairs. You assume that because you once planted it, it is growing into a strong tree. In your mind you picture a healthy tree, and may even tell your friends about it. You may write a poem or song about it.

However, you never actually go to look for evidence. From your window you may see the little fence you put around the plot, and the stake in the ground marked with the date you planted it. But if you would look up close, you may discover that weeds have taken over and there is no evidence of an oak tree at all.

That can happen when the seed of God’s word is planted in our hearts. In our minds we may still recall that wonderful day we received it into our hearts, the awesome experience, the tears, the walk up to the altar, the ecstatic peace. We may remember how much we meant it and how zealous we were to live for God. However, memories of the past are not trustworthy criteria. Jesus said that even seeds that sprout quickly and initially seem to show signs of life do not ensure eternal salvation.

The book of Hebrews uses Israel as an example of a people who received many seeds, and yet their faith never took deep root in God. The Israelites in the desert had tasted God’s blessings, and even had the presence of his Spirit. God saved them from the world, that is, from Egypt and later from surrounding enemies. He saved Israel from starvation and from thirst. I suspect that he miraculously spared them many times in order to give them many opportunities to repent and receive eternal salvation. However, in the end, except for a few individuals who “took root”, Israel produced no “crop”, and so God did not spare the unbelievers from the eternal consequences. They "never entered his rest." Heb.

Even in Jesus’ day, as a nation, Israel refused to believe, and instead they trusted in their inherited status with God and their own righteousness. And so Israel, apart from those who took root (remained) in Christ, was rejected by God and become a broken-off branch.

Israel's history serves as a warning to us: We too cannot base our salvation on the times God rescued us in the past; we cannot trust in our cleaned-up life, our works, and our denomination. History has proven that even the best Bible-believing churches stray from pure faith within a very few generations.

Judas is another example. He was called by Christ just like the other disciples were. However, his association with Christ did not guarantee his eternal salvation. Likewise today, there are many who have responded to God’s call, and even zealously worked hard in his vineyard. But Scripture does not allow them to use that as criteria for salvation.

Countless professing Christians are so assured of their salvation that they never examine themselves to make sure it is real. They are confident that because they “got saved”, they have eternal security, even though they live according to their own standards, continue to master their own lives, follow the ways of the world, or trust in the church. Sadly, they are not trusting in God’s salvation but in their own salvation. They will perish on the final day, unless they repent.

I believe that one reason false assurance is common is the way salvation is presented. It is made too easy and allows for too much compromise. Very little is said about Christ's requirements. Also, people assume that faithful adherence in their church is proof of salvation. Few question this.

Jesus, on the other hand, let seekers know the cost up-front. I suspect that one reason he discouraged half-hearted commitment was because he did not want anyone to have a false sense of eternal security. That would be worse than being pagan. At least pagans do not assume to be saved.

We need to know what a "well-rooted tree" looks like, or we will not know what to expect. The Bible gives plenty of criteria by which we can examine ourselves and know where we stand. The first epistle of John is an excellent example. In it John wrote: “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.” 1 Jn. 5:13
Diane


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Diane

 2006/3/7 20:11Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
No where in the parable of the Sower does it say that they loose their salvation because they believed on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, just like the ones that have fallen away;



Luke 8

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Do you see that one must continue to believe and through diligence one is saved. Paul is always exhorting us to grow into maturity. In verse 12 Satan has stolen the word of God out of their heart. With the loss of the word, these people continue to grow into the seed of Satan.

2 Thes 2:
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


In this verse, the people err because they did not recieve the love of the truth. In the sower of the seed, the word of God was sown by God in the hearts of the individual. And then Satan comes and steals the word out of their hearts. It is the love of the truth which overcomes the works and deceptions of Satan.

The love of the truth, what power creates this love?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/3/8 15:51Profile
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Joined: 2005/4/19
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 Re:

If you are not born again, are you really even a Christian?


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Melissa

 2006/3/8 16:01Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
The Holy Spirit is the Teacher and Power of the Life of Christ in us. The Holy Spirit is not the Life, it was not the Holy Spirit that died on the Cross and is born again in us, it Christ, He is the one that died and gives us life.



I agree with this totally. It is the Holy Spirit that creates the New man. The new born will have a DNA that will cause us to be conformed into the [b]image of His Son...[/b]

The Holy Spirit is the power by which God has chosen to change us in a way that resembles the Son of God. The "Life" is a way of describing the manifestation of the work of the Holy Spirit in us. We will begin to understand how Christ suffered. We will begin to understand how the Father loves the Son. We will begin to understand why the world must hate us. We will begin to understand how Christ loves us by giving us what is His through the Holy Spirit. This is the nature of the spiritual union between us and the Father and the Son. This whole transformation is summed up in these few words.

Genesis 3:15

"....her Seed;..."

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/3/8 16:11Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sister Diane wrote:

Quote:
We need to know what a "well-rooted tree" looks like, or we will not know what to expect. The Bible gives plenty of criteria by which we can examine ourselves and know where we stand. The first epistle of John is an excellent example. In it John wrote: “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.” 1 Jn. 5:13
Diane



Very well said in all that you have written about the sower of the seed parable. But this last statement is especially precise.

Many pastors will teach out of a Dallas Seminary Dispensational Theology type text. The verse in 1 John 5:13 is explained just the opposite of what you have so clearly written above.

How many are lost, because men teach that we are already made perfect by what Christ did on the cross. Yet these same people never seem to experience the "Life" that John and Paul write about. They never learn to love the truth.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/3/8 16:20Profile





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