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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born Again By What Means

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Christinyou
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 Re:

for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

We were not by nature grafted into the tree. They by nature were the tree and branches cut off. Even they will be grafted back in and we are grafted into the same tree. There is only one tree, that tree is Christ by Nature of the Father. The Tree of Life which is Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

To be a Jew inwardly is the same for a Christian. It is not the outward appearance of religious piety or works lest any should boast. It is the inward regeneration of the heart, Christ in you the Hope of Glory. If Christ is not all and in all that believe, there is no salvation that the Father can give, even by Grace or Faith. It must be of God who has made Christ in us our righteousness, wisdom, sanctification and redemption. There is no other branch that the Father can accept and graft into Christ except the branch which is Christ and one with Him, Born Again by His Incorruptable Seed, which is Christ only. There is only one way to the Tree and that is by the Tree Himself.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/12/13 19:48Profile
Christinyou
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John 15:1-5 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Is the Vine different from the Olive Tree? The ancient tree of old testament is the stock that Israel was grown from. Still yet, who is the Root? Israel may be the root and branches but where did the seed come from. If God had not chosen Abraham to be the barer of the Seed that all nations would come under in its defeat of sin and death, there would be no tree or branches or grafted in or regrafted in branches at all. The Tree is Holy because God chose the seed by which it would grow. Why were the branches broken off, because the Church was to be grafted in? No, the branches were broken off because of unbelief. There are three great scandals in the history of the religious history of the Church, be it Jewish or Christian. 1. The killing of its own Prophets and Christ Himself by the Jewish nation. The horror of the Roman inquisition and the Hatred of the Jews by so called Christians. There is another and that is rejoice that Israel has been cut off, and we Christians see ourselves as better than They were. God will not be mocked,

Romans 11:20-21 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

The Church has a bad way of either trying to get into heaven on the coat tails of Israel or instead of because we are better.

Now comes the Vine which is different from the Olive Tree and how it deals with Jew and Gentile. The Vine does not differentiate between the two, for all are either in the Vine or are not. If we abide in the Vine, we abide in Christ. This is completely different from the Olive Tree. If you try to commingle the two you miss the Salvation of Christ and re-enter the the Old Testament way of Salvation which is by works and the Law kept to make one's self approved unto God, which was a complete failure on man's part. With Christ in us, it now depends upon Him and the Power of the Holy Spirit in bring God's children to their place in His House. Again we must rightly divide the Word of Truth that we might be approved, rightly dividing the Word of God. We are in a complete new Testament. Which fulfills the Word of God.
Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Do we see the tree that Israel was and where the Vine gets its origin. The Tree is not the same as the Vine and cannot be grafted, for an olive branch will not take in its graft to a vine. An olive tree cannot produce grapes.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/12/13 23:36Profile









 Re: Born Again By What Means

Quote:
Now comes the Vine which is different from the Olive Tree and how it deals with Jew and Gentile. The Vine does not differentiate between the two, for all are either in the Vine or are not. If we abide in the Vine, we abide in Christ. This is completely different from the Olive Tree.

Dear Phillip,

I think you are mistaken to try to put similar interpretations on the two trees - olive and grape - since they manifestly have two different roles in communicating truth from God's heart to us, just as you pointed out that their fruit are different.... which [i]of course[/i] they are!

The olive - going back to the Ark (Noah's) speaks of the end of God's wrath in a different way from the vine. The olive speaks of an outward peace - an anointing - of light to show the way - direction. (There must be a lot more, but, I'm not claiming expertise.... just drawing attention to a few obvious things.)

The vine, however, has a very interesting reference here:

Ezekiel 19:10
[u]Thy mother is like a vine in thy blood[/u], planted by the waters: she was fruitful and full of branches by reason of many waters.

which very specifically draws our attention to 'the life' and this:

Leviticus 17:11
[u]For the life of the flesh is in the blood[/u]: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Often when the vine is mentioned with another tree, it is the fig, but in the following verse:

Psalms 128:3
Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: [u]thy children like olive plants[/u] round about thy table.


I'm not offering here a definitive explanation, but, I [i]am[/i] suggesting there is [u]much more[/u] to understanding the [i]meaning[/i] of the olive tree as distinct from the vine, than simply to reduce it to a comparison between Jews and Gentiles, or works and grace.

Jesus said 'I AM the Vine.' This suggests to me, (especially in the light of this verse:

Genesis 49:11
[u]Binding[/u] his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt [u]unto the [b]choice[/b] vine[/u]; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:)

that He is replacing an internal working of the person, as profoundly as [i]in their blood[/i].... which is where alcohol quickly ends up after is has been drunk.

The reference to the ass and the colt, have something to do with bringing the will into subjection to God - that rebellious, unbroken [i]colt[/i] 'will', stubborn [i]ass[/i] 'will' - the will which is self-seeking - the ultimate error of Lucifer, ministered to Adam at the Fall.

The sap from the true Vine, produces [u]fruit[/u] in tbe branches - the fruit of the Spirit. The olive tree seems to represent something which is far more about natural inheritance or supernatural inheritance (in Romans). And no-one drinks oil.

I know these thoughts are incomplete, but I believe the differing trees deserve much deeper consideration, and prayer, to understand more of what God may be saying to us through them.

 2005/12/14 6:26
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
This is completely different from the Olive Tree. If you try to commingle the two you miss the Salvation of Christ and re-enter the the Old Testament way of Salvation which is by works and the Law kept to make one's self approved unto God, which was a complete failure on man's part.



There is no salvation according to the works of the Law. Never can a man enter into salvation by keeping the Law of Moses given on Mount Sinai. Scripture teaches that salvation comes only by grace through faith.

Ezek. 20:5 “Say to them, “Thus says the Lord GOD: “On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, ‘I am the LORD your God.’ 6 On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, “flowing with milk and honey,’ the glory of all lands. 7 Then I said to them, “Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.’ 8 But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, “I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’

What covenant does this speak of?

This oath that God made with them is given prior to the law given on Mount Sinai. What covenant existed 430 years before the Law given on Mount Sinai?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/12/14 12:03Profile
rookie
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 Re:

Sister Dorcas quoted:


Quote:
The olive - going back to the Ark (Noah's) speaks of the end of God's wrath in a different way from the vine. The olive speaks of an outward peace - an anointing - of light to show the way - direction. (There must be a lot more, but, I'm not claiming expertise.... just drawing attention to a few obvious things.)




Job 29:1 Job further continued his discourse, and said:
2 “Oh, that I were as in months past,
As in the days when God watched over me;
3 When His lamp shone upon my head,
And when by His light I walked through darkness;
4 Just as I was in the days of my prime,
When the friendly counsel of God was over my tent;
5 When the Almighty was yet with me,
When my children were around me;
6 When my steps were bathed with cream,
And the rock poured out rivers of oil for me!



Zech. 4:1 Now the angel who talked with me came back and wakened me, as a man who is wakened out of his sleep. 2 And he said to me, “What do you see?”

So I said, “I am looking, and there is a lampstand of solid gold with a bowl on top of it, and on the stand seven lamps with seven pipes to the seven lamps. 3 Two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl and the other at its left.” 4 So I answered and spoke to the angel who talked with me, saying, “What are these, my lord?”

Zech. 4:5 Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, “Do you not know what these are?”

And I said, “No, my lord.”

Zech. 4:6 So he answered and said to me:
“This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel:
‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’
Says the LORD of hosts.
7 “Who are you, O great mountain?
Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain!
And he shall bring forth the capstone
With shouts of ‘Grace, grace to it!” ’ ”

Zech. 4:8 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
9 “The hands of Zerubbabel
Have laid the foundation of this temple;
His hands shall also finish it.
Then you will know
That the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.
10 For who has despised the day of small things?
For these seven rejoice to see
The plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel.
They are the eyes of the LORD,
Which scan to and fro throughout the whole earth.”

Zech. 4:11 Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees—at the right of the lampstand and at its left?” 12 And I further answered and said to him, “What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?”

Zech. 4:13 Then he answered me and said, “Do you not know what these are?”

And I said, “No, my lord.”

Zech. 4:14 So he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.”




Is. 11:1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
2 The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him,
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
3 His delight is in the fear of the LORD,
And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,
Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
And faithfulness the belt of His waist.
6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea.
10 “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.”
11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
12 He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.
13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart,
And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off;
Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west;
Together they shall plunder the people of the East;
They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab;
And the people of Ammon shall obey them.
15 The LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Sea of Egypt;
With His mighty wind He will shake His fist over the River,
And strike it in the seven streams,
And make men cross over dryshod.
16 There will be a highway for the remnant of His people
Who will be left from Assyria,
As it was for Israel
In the day that he came up from the land of Egypt.

Oil comes from the rock at times in Scripture. Oil comes from the Olive branch in Scripture. The Holy Spirit is always in the middle of these pictures in Scripture.


Psa. 80:1 Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel,
You who lead Joseph like a flock;
You who dwell between the cherubim, shine forth!
2 Before Ephraim, Benjamin, and Manasseh,
Stir up Your strength,
And come and save us!
3 Restore us, O God;
Cause Your face to shine,
And we shall be saved!
4 O LORD God of hosts,
How long will You be angry
Against the prayer of Your people?
5 You have fed them with the bread of tears,
And given them tears to drink in great measure.
6 You have made us a strife to our neighbors,
And our enemies laugh among themselves.
7 Restore us, O God of hosts;
Cause Your face to shine,
And we shall be saved!
8 You have brought a vine out of Egypt;
You have cast out the nations, and planted it.
9 You prepared room for it,
And caused it to take deep root,
And it filled the land.
10 The hills were covered with its shadow,
And the mighty cedars with its boughs.
11 She sent out her boughs to the Sea,
And her branches to the River.
12 Why have You broken down her hedges,
So that all who pass by the way pluck her fruit?
13 The boar out of the woods uproots it,
And the wild beast of the field devours it.
14 Return, we beseech You, O God of hosts;
Look down from heaven and see,
And visit this vine
15 And the vineyard which Your right hand has planted,
And the branch that You made strong for Yourself.


The Lord of Host is the Shepherd that this Psalm sings to. He is the Rock of their salvation. There is none other by which men can be saved.

I too do not understand clearly what I see at this moment. Yet as time goes on just like for Daniel the dream becomes clearer.

Those who remain in the vine become one with the vine.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/12/14 12:51Profile
rookie
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 Re:

Zech. 3:6 Then the Angel of the LORD admonished Joshua, saying, 7 “Thus says the LORD of hosts:
‘If you will walk in My ways,
And if you will keep My command,
Then you shall also judge My house,
And likewise have charge of My courts;
I will give you places to walk
Among these who stand here.
8 “Hear, O Joshua, the high priest,
You and your companions who sit before you,
For they are a wondrous sign;
For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH.
9 For behold, the stone
That I have laid before Joshua:
Upon the stone are seven eyes.
Behold, I will engrave its inscription,’
Says the LORD of hosts,
“And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
10 In that day,’ says the LORD of hosts,
“Everyone will invite his neighbor
Under his vine and under his fig tree.’ ”

Also

Zech. 6:9 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 10 “Receive the gift from the captives—from Heldai, Tobijah, and Jedaiah, who have come from Babylon—and go the same day and enter the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah. 11 Take the silver and gold, make an elaborate crown, and set it on the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest. 12 Then speak to him, saying, “Thus says the LORD of hosts, saying:
‘Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH!
From His place He shall branch out,
And He shall build the temple of the LORD;
13 Yes, He shall build the temple of the LORD.
He shall bear the glory,
And shall sit and rule on His throne;
So He shall be a priest on His throne,
And the counsel of peace shall be between them both.” ’

Zech. 6:14 “Now the elaborate crown shall be for a memorial in the temple of the LORD for Helem, Tobijah, Jedaiah, and Hen the son of Zephaniah. 15 Even those from afar shall come and build the temple of the LORD. Then you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you. And this shall come to pass if you diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.”


In both of these sections of Scripture we find the Branch which speaks of Joshua the high priest but also look to what is given him.

And shall sit and rule on His throne;
So He shall be a priest on His throne,
And the counsel of peace shall be between them both.” ’

Now we know that only one can occupy both the throne and also function as the priest on His throne. This Scripture also speaks of those who the Lord has brought back from the captivity of Babylon and other places during the times of Ezra and Nehemiah.

Do you see that this Branch speaks of both Christ and Joshua? Do you see that this Branch is Holy?

Now look to Romans 11:

Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.


Here the branches are holy in verse 16. Some of the branches were broken off in verse 17. Then a wild olive branch was grafted in [b]among them.[/b]" So from this Scripture we know that the wild olive branch was added to other holy branches that were not broken off.

I believe each one of these holy branches speaks of each generation of people who are saved by grace through faith. This is the promise that God spoke to Abraham.


Genesis 17:
6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.

This promise is given to each generation. Those who live by faith will become the holy branch of their generation.

Matt. 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.

This covers the covenant that Paul teaches about in Galatians that was made to Abraham.

Why does Paul speak of only two covenants, the everlasting covenant given to Abraham and the covenant given to Moses on Mount Sinai?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/12/14 13:48Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

What covenant does this speak of?

Only the covenant with Israel.

This oath that God made with them is given prior to the law given on Mount Sinai. What covenant existed 430 years before the Law given on Mount Sinai?

Without the Law there was no sin, but the Law made sin exceedingly sinful. Sin abounded from the first command, thou shall not partake of the tree in the middle of the garden, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or you shall surely die. All Parish from one sin of one man, passed on to all mankind, all are saved because of the Blood of the second Man, Jesus Christ.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Here is the 1 remaining inexact match:

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Merge these two and you have the Law of Grace in Christ Jesus. First believe unto our birth as son's, then as son's we can obey His commandments

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/12/14 17:34Profile
rookie
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Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
Only the covenant with Israel.



The Law of Grace was in place during the time when Joseph, Judah, Simeon, Levi, and all the other brothers and all their children lived in Egypt. What is that we find spoken of in Ezekiel? They disobeyed God. They would not give up their false worship. So God then gave them the Law of Moses. They would not listen to His voice, so He gave the the written Law.

The Galatians experienced the same, listen to Paul warn them.

Gal. 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?


The covenant made with Abraham is extended and present in all the generations that followed him. The 42 generations spoken of by Matthew preceding Christ were given the same access to enter into His rest. Please see that Paul makes no new revelation as to how one is saved. "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or [b]by the hearing of faith?[/b]

God spoke to Abraham. God spoke to Joseph. God spoke to every generation that followed for 42 generations. What is it that creates the faith that saves?

Hearing the word of God this is the point where faith finds it's beginning.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/12/15 11:05Profile
Christinyou
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Posts: 3708
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 Re:

Galatians 3:22-24 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Who is the Faith, when did Faith come? Before Christ came all were under the Law, even those that new it not. Faith for salvation was shut up until Christ would come and reveal it to those that would believe. That Faith is of Him, Through Him and by Him. There is no revelation of faith that is of God unless it is by The Faith Of Jesus Christ. All have faith, but none have the Faith of Jesus Christ unless it is given by the Father. My faith takes me to the store and gives me learned abilities to accomplish the buying of what I believe in to keep me alive and comfortable. Same faith to drive a car and get where I want to go. My faith will do all to give me life on this earth and be what I and others want me to be. I live on this earth by this faith which is given to all men.

There is the faith of man and the Faith of God. It is different and to receive it we must believe in it. If we believe God about His Son, The Faith of Jesus Christ will be birthed in us.
Then we can say we live by the Faith of the Son of God. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

By Christ that has been born again in the believer we can live and move and have our being in that Faith, The Faith of Jesus Christ. This Faith does not need to be reckoned to us as righteousness, because it is Righteousness in all the essence of God Himself in His Son. Please see the difference in what God has done in His Son and the Cross and new life in Christ. This is truly the Body of Christ His Church. We have no promises that will take place when we believe because the Life of Christ in you is the Hope of Glory. Not by anything that we did or do, our righteousness is now of Christ, not counted because I believed God about what He told me to do, but because He because I believe Him, He has put righteousness Himself in me and now my Faith is His Faith, this is a Christian.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/12/15 17:13Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
Galatians 3:22-24 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.




Phillip, I don't remember which thread you posted your testimony of how you at first struggled for years trying to keep the law. And then one day something happened. Would you say that your experience parralleled the Scripture you cited above?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/12/16 20:18Profile





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