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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born Again By What Means

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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sis wrote:

Quote:
Please correct me if I've misunderstood you. You are saying that Tozer believed Kind David had been born again?



I transcribed this from a sermon found on SI.

"The man God finds, elects and saves, and gives of His illumination of His Spirit, is not necessarily morally better than the other. I don’t think Jacob was morally better than Esau at all. And I don’t think David was morally better than Saul.

I don’t know about Abel and Cain they had the same parents, they had no heredity at all. There were no lines that went back to anywhere, you know they started from scratch. Their parents were the same two people. And their parents had no parents. So they had nothing to inherit. They were two people that did not inherit anything. Except directly from their parents. So they must have been very much alike. But there had happen something to them inside of them and that was what mattered. One of them inside of him was an unregenerate man and his spirit was the spirit of the world. The other man somehow, by some mystery of God, had found the new birth, and that inside of him was the Spirit of God. And so they were sore points one with the other. They couldn’t get along. And yet I don’t think that Abel ever quarreled with Cain. But Abel’s offering was accepted, and Cain said, “That bigot I’ll get him.” He wouldn’t engage him in dialogue, He, he says that he knows God. He says when he offers a lamb God accepts a lamb, and I don’t like that. And so he took him out and killed him. They were two brothers and yet they were two spirits never the less. Contrary spirits, contrary one to the other.

Now who are these, who are these, who is this Abel, who is this Jacob, who is eh, eh, David. Who are these? That in the midst of a fallen world, managed somehow to get through. They, they that are touched and ?????? sent. When God lays His hand upon a man, And God calls a man until they hear. And God speaks and rouses them and they wake. And God enlightens them. And God moves upon them. This, this makes a Christian…. He hears that God is calling him. And so that, that touch of God comes on him. He hears that call. My sheep hear My voice. My sheep know My voice. And they follow Me. But the stranger they do not hear. Blessed are they for they shall find mercy said Jesus. Theirs is the kingdom of heaven…."


Here is the sermon in full:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=303


In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/24 11:35Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sis wrote:

Quote:
I've been thinking about the scripture you quoted on p10 and I recognise the prayers in Psalm 119 as being very similar to what you or I might pray. But isn't that just it? When we begin to seek God, we bring an Old Covenant mindset to our thinking about Him. We can't help that, because we have guilt and are growing more and more aware of our sins and sinfulness.

29 Remove from me the way of lying,
And grant me Your law graciously.




Do you think God answered his prayer? If so how would God go about dispensing His grace on David?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/24 11:38Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sis wrote:

Quote:
And under the Old Covenant, men and women knew they could not rid themselves of sin. They had to sacrifice.



There are two pictures that Scripture portrays of the nation of Israel. One picture speaks of many who did not mix faith with the gospel, and the second group, the remnant did believe the gospel. Thoughtout the OT we are given examples of the broad road people and the narrow road people.

Hos. 6:1 Come, and let us return to the LORD;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the LORD.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth.
4 “O Ephraim, what shall I do to you?
O Judah, what shall I do to you?
For your faithfulness is like a morning cloud,
And like the early dew it goes away.
5 Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets,
I have slain them by the words of My mouth;
And your judgments are like light that goes forth.
6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 “But like men they transgressed the covenant;
There they dealt treacherously with Me.
8 Gilead is a city of evildoers
And defiled with blood.
9 As bands of robbers lie in wait for a man,
So the company of priests murder on the way to Shechem;
Surely they commit lewdness.
10 I have seen a horrible thing in the house of Israel:
There is the harlotry of Ephraim;
Israel is defiled.
11 Also, O Judah, a harvest is appointed for you,
When I return the captives of My people.


6 For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

How does knowledge of God satisfy the law? Jesus said:

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Throughout the OT God required that His people know Him. Those who lacked understanding were judged unfaithful and guilty of spiritual harlotry.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/24 11:53Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Graftedbranch wrote:

Quote:
John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. All things came into being through Him and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being."

This is the work of Christ before incarnation. He was with God and Was God.




Have you ever wondered why God appointed Melchezedec High Priest? What was Melchezedec's work?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/24 11:58Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Have you ever wondered why God appointed Melchezedec High Priest? What was Melchezedec's work?



Not much is said of him. He is refered to in Hebrews as a type of Christ. Christ is said to be a high priest after the order of Melchezedec. And the Type is brought out in the fact that there is no mention of Melchezedec origins as a type of Christ, who is eternal and has no beginning or end of days. And also his supperiority over the Aronic priesthood because Aron was in Abraham's loins and Abraham offered tithes to Melchezedec.

Was Melchezedec Christ? Possibly. The Scritpure does not say he was. It only says Christ is a priest "after the order of Melchezedec".

But there are "Christophonies" in the Old Testament. The "Angel of the Lord who appeared to Joshuah was a "Christophonie".

I did not mean to imply that Creation is the only work Christ did before His incarnation. But that He acted as God. Everything the Triune God ever does or has done is from the Father, through the Son and by the Holy Spirit. Even Creation (Genesis 1).

We also have God appearing in human form to Abraham. But this does not imply that Christ had humanity, Just the ability to assume human form as He did with Abraham.

To have humanity, Christ had to be born into it.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Romans 1:3,4 Concerning His son, who came out of the seed of David according to the flesh, Who was designated the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness out of the resurrection of the Dead."

 2005/11/24 12:38Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: Tozer

Quote:
One of them inside of him was an unregenerate man and his spirit was the spirit of the world. The other man somehow, by some mystery of God, had found the new birth, and that inside of him was the Spirit of God.



I think brother Tozer is overemphasising this. I don't know his view on this. Surely the Spirit was upon some in the Old Testament in a way that He was not upon others. And He worked in them and there was a conversion and experience of the Spirit within them. As David prayed, "take not your Holy Spirit from me".

But in the saying of this there is the intimation that there was the possibility of His departing. Something of which the New Testament is unfamiliar. The Lord Jesus said, "And He shall be with you forever".

Christ had to go through the economical processes of incarnation, human living, crucifixion and resurrection as the "Life Giving Spirit" (1 Cor 15:45) to be able to impart Himself into us as the "Spirit of Jesus Christ." The Spirit of Jesus implies his humanity. The Spirit as the "Spirit of Jesus Christ" was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorified in John 7.

And this is the testimony, that God has given us Eternal Life, this Life is in His Son, He who has the Son has the Life, He who does not have the Son of God does not have the Life (1 John 5:11,12)

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/24 13:19Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: At what point beginning

Quote:
The intrinsic significance is in realizing the Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. IN 1 cor 15:45 we are told that in resurrection Christ, "became a Life Giving Spirit". Only through going through the Process of crucifixion and resurrection is Christ able now to "breath Himself into us as the Life Giving Spirit". The Spirit who in John 7 "Was not yet because Christ was not yet glorified", when Christ was resurrected, "Was" because Christ was glorified.



Agreeing with what does end up being a point of squabbling, because ultimately it has happened... Just wondering if sizing these two subsets together have any relevance:

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Joh 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
Joh 20:16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

At what point was He glorified? It just seems difficult to try and force the issue that His breathing on them was all that is being extrapolated, that a necessity has to be made of distinguishing this into such clean lines.

There are many other verses that come to mind that do not seem to fit this so neatly and, well, I am back to that mystery thing again...

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles that were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 who, when they were come down, prayed for them, [b]that they might receive the Holy Spirit[/b]:
Act 8:16 [b]for as yet it was fallen upon none of them: only they had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus[/b].

Act 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, [b]We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost[/b].
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And [u]when[/u] Paul had laid his hands upon them, [b]the Holy Ghost came on them[/b]; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Just as mysterious and interesting is in other discussions we have had in regards to personal testimony. Some very 'instantaneously', date's, time and places, others with a backward glance, knowing at some point a transaction must have taken place but without recollection to an 'event' even. Something about this verse that is telling;

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/11/24 13:28Profile









 Re: Born Again By What Means


Hello to rookie, Graftedbranc, Christinyou and other readers,

This is an old thread called The Distinction Between Being "Filled" and "Baptized" in the Holy Ghost, dating from last September. I have not read it yet, but I intend to, before adding much more here.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=3132&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=3132&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go[/url]

 2005/11/24 13:40
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)



Just a small point Mike, but if you will notice in your Bible in this verse, the word, not yet "Given" is in italics. That is it means it is not in the origional but believed to be implied.

The Actual Greek wording is "for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

I like Andrew Murray's word on this in "The Holy Spirit"

"The glorifying of Jesus and the streaming forth of His Spirit are intimately connected; in vital organic union the two are inseparably linked.. If we would have, not only the Spirit of God, but this Spirit of Christ, which 'was not yet,'but now is, the Spirit of the glorified Jesus, it is specially with the glorified Jesus we must believingly deal.

We have the most intense personal interest in knowing and understanding what it means that Jesus is glorified, that human nature shares the life and glory of God, that the Spirit was not yet, as long as Jesus was not glorified. And that not only because we are one day to see Him in His glory, and to be with Him in it. No, but even now, day by day, we are to live in it. The Holy Spirit is able to be to us just as much as we are willing to have of Him, and of the life of the glorified Lord.

From His nature, as it was glorified in the resurrection and ascension, His Spirit came forth as the Spirit of His human life, glorified into the union with the Divine, to make us partakers of all that He had personally wrought out and acquired, of Himself and His glorified life.

And in virtue of His having perfected in Himself a new holy human nature on our behalf, He could now communicate what previously had no existence,-a life at once human and Divine. From henceforth the Spirit, just as He was the personal Divine life, could also become the personal life of men. Even as the Spirit is the personal life principle in God Himself, so He can be it in the child of God: the Spirit of God's Son can now be the Spirit that cries in our heart, Abba, Father. Of this Spirit it is most fully true, 'The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

Exerpts from, The Spirit of Christ by Andrew Murray

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/24 14:07Profile
aeryck
Member



Joined: 2005/1/11
Posts: 234
United Kingdom

 Abba Father

Hi Grafted Branch,

We meet again. The segment you have quoted for Andrew Murray, [His statue is in our town], struck such a vital chord with me. I had to look them up and post them.

Quote:

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:15
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:6



I am not entirely sure how this post has gone, or if it has developed from the opening post to something profound, but I shall once again have to do some serious reading, here and where Dorcas is pointing.

:-P


_________________
Eric John Sawyer

 2005/11/24 15:02Profile





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