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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born Again By What Means

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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
Do you see anything that says He breathed the Holy Spirit into them. He could not, for the Holy Spirit Had Not come from the Father until Pentecost.




Luke 24:
49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

Jesus at that moment in time gave the "Promise of My Father" to them. What was that Promise?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/23 17:21Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:

Quote:
These are two "becommings" of Christ. Before Christ's incarnation he was only God, He did not have a human nature. In incarnation He became a man. Something he was not before, He did not have humanity, He had only divinity.



What did Christ do before He had only divinity? What was His work?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/23 17:23Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
What did Christ do before He had only divinity? What was His work?



Colossians 1:16 "Because in Him (Christ) all things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things and all things cohere in Him."

John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. All things came into being through Him and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being."

This is the work of Christ before incarnation. He was with God and Was God.

vs. 14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..."




Graftedbranch

 2005/11/23 17:40Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
esus at that moment in time gave the "Promise of My Father" to them. What was that Promise?



The promise of the Father was the outpoured Spirit according to many of the prophecies of the Old testament.

But the inbreathing of the Holy Spirit on the eve of Christ's resurrection was the fulfillment of the promise of Christ in John 7 and John 14. That is the Spirit of Christ as our indwelling Life in resurrection.

The Promise of the Father is related to the outpoured Spirit in power, the Power of the ascended Lord. But the promise of the Spirit as our indwelling Life as the Lord gave in John 14 is related to His resurrection, our regeneration and our "knowing that He is in the Father and we are in Him and He is in us" As also in John 7 "But this He spake of the Spirit. But the Spirit was not yet because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Jesus was glorified in His resurrection. the Spirit of the resurrected Christ was breathed into His diciples regenerating them and bringing the Divine Life into them. At Pentecost the Spirit was outpoured according to the "promise of the Father" in power because Christ had been exalted to the "right hand of the Father".

Life is related to resurrection, Power is related to ascension.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/23 17:54Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Do you see anything that says He breathed the Holy Spirit into them. He could not, for the Holy Spirit Had Not come from the Father until Pentecost.



The word spirit in Greek is pnuma or "breath". The Holy Spirit is the "Holy Pnuma" or Holy breath.

I don't think it could be plainer, Christ as the resurrected God/Man breathed into (onto) them and said, "recieve the Holy Spirit". If His breathing onto them and saying, "recieve the Holy Spirit does not imply that He breathed onto them "the Holy Pnuma" Then I believe that we are talking about two different passages of scripture.

Whether it is onto or into, the meaning and implication is the Same. The Resurrected Lord breathed to them the Holy Pnema or Spirit and said, recieve the Holy Spirit.

Why is is so hard to admit that there is possibly two aspects to the Spirit? The Spirit as resurrection life and the Spirit poured out as Power. One quietly internal, the other with a loud rushing wind for power for the work. Why is this a difficult thing to see. Is is just becaue it is not the traditional view?

I suggest that in many circles the Power of the Spirit and the Gifts of the Spirit according to Pentecost are emphasised but the inward work of the Spirit in revealing and imparting Christ into us as Life is not known or preached.

The Spirit as Power for doing great and miraculous things is preached and emphasised but the Spirit as our inner life is neglected.

That these two aspects are real is evident in the testimony of many servants of Christ. They may have been saved and regenerated for a long while, but they did not know the outpoured Spirit in power till some specific time in their ministry. Surely we need both aspects. We need the growth and maturity of Life by the indwelling Spirit and we need the power for the work of the gospel and building up the body of Christ.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/23 23:27Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Hi Jeff,

Re:
Brother Phillip wrote:



Quote:

Do you see anything that says He breathed the Holy Spirit into them. He could not, for the Holy Spirit Had Not come from the Father until Pentecost.



Luke 24:
49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”

Jesus at that moment in time gave the "Promise of My Father" to them. What was that Promise?

In Christ
Jeff

To wait in Jerusalem until the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, My promise is upon you, tarry until the Holy Spirit is sent with Power from the Father on High.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Pentecost is the fiftieth day from Passover, when Jesus ask them to tarry in Jerusalem, He had already been with them for some time from His resurrection, teaching them and showing Himself resurrected to over 500 persons. It was just a few days they had to tarry until Pentecost was come and the infilling of the Holy Spirit, when the 120 had tongues of fire on their heads to signify what had happened inside them Christ in them the Hope of Glory and the Holy Spirit power Worker Teacher for this miracle that had just been born again in them, the Spirit of Christ's Seed.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.

He had not gone when He breathed the promise upon them.

No more squabbling over such a mute point, Christ has come and so has the Holy Spirit.

If I am wrong please forgive me. In my spirit I have given the truth of the Word as I have been given it. If I am wrong I am sure the Holy Spirit will forgive me and show me the truth and I will repent. I know Christ is my Life and The Holy Spirit is my Teacher thereof.



In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/11/23 23:46Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
No more squabbling over such a mute point, Christ has come and so has the Holy Spirit.



Amen Phillip,

The fact is that Christ is both resurrected and ascended. The Spirit has been given both as resurrection Life and also Power. He is both our indwelling Lord and life as well as our Power for Service. He is both. The Sequence of His comming or the order of events practically for us is not an issue.

The only issue is in understanding both aspects of the Spirit. The One as our indwelling LIfe and the other as our clothing, our mantle, for the accomplishing of the work of the gospel and the building up of the Body of Christ.

The Fact is, Christ is ressurected and we have "Life in His Name" and Christ is ascended and we have the "Power of the Spirit from on High. We need both and we have both.

The intrinsic significance is in realizing the Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. IN 1 cor 15:45 we are told that in resurrection Christ, "became a Life Giving Spirit". Only through going through the Process of crucifixion and resurrection is Christ able now to "breath Himself into us as the Life Giving Spirit". The Spirit who in John 7 "Was not yet because Christ was not yet glorified", when Christ was resurrected, "Was" because Christ was glorified.

When Christ was among the Diciples He could be with them but not in them. But now having gone away to the Cross and death, He has now returned to them as the Living Resurrected Christ and now as He promised, "He is with you and shall be in you". That is, He was among them as Jesus in the flesh. But now He is breathed into them as the Life Giving Spirit. Paul said, "though we have known Christ according to the flesh, we know Him thus no longer".

2 Corinthians 3:17 says, "And the Lord is the Spirit". And vs:18 says, "But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting as a mirror, the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit"

This distinction is also seen in the Lord Himself. He was concieved by the Holy Spirit and obviously the Spirit was always within Him, But at His baptism the Spirit decended upon Him for the work of His ministry. In the Same way the Spirit was breathed into His diciples as their indwelling Life in John 20:21 for their New Birth, and the Spirit was poured out upon them 50 days later for the work of the New Testament Ministry.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/24 0:46Profile









 Re: Born Again By What Means


Hi Graftedbranc,

I think you are mistaken to think there is not a groundswell of support for 'new birth' within the church at large and also here at SI; but, the suggestion that the disciples were born again when Jesus breathed on them, rather than as a result of waiting on God before Pentecost, finds no resonance with those who come after them, who must [i]seek[/i] the Lord, [i]repent[/i] (which the disciples had done already) and [i]receive the gift of the Holy Spirit[/i].

There is much more to the doctrine of new birth, which ties together the physical and the spritiual, in an absolutely perfect way. There was no 'labour' to enter into His rest, on the night Jesus breathed on them.

I don't have a problem accepting that some people don't receive a baptism IN the Holy Spirit till some time after their new birth, as long as what they are calling 'new birth' has changed their inward relationship with God, but, you must (I believe) also acknowledge that some people receive the baptism at the same time they receive Christ.

Lastly, if I could just comment, the name 'Christ' means 'anointed', as does Messiah, I believe. It was not till the Incarnation that this Name for the Son becomes meaningful, although we all acknowledge the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Nevertheless, until He had Ascended, the Holy Spirit could not be poured out. The writer to the Hebrews comments

Hebrews 9:23
[It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

I understand this verse to mean that until Christ had returned to heaven, the Holy Spirit was not available to be poured out.

This is [u]the major objection[/u] to your thesis that the disciples were born again when the risen Lord Jesus breathed on them.

This also answers the idea that the Old Testament saints could be born again if they had sufficient revelation. It did not depend on their revelation through prophecy - which perhaps they did not understand, (which ties in with Phillip's point about the mystery - which Peter also comments that prophets and angels have desired to look into), it depended on the [u]finshed work of Jesus Christ[/u]. Not until He was seated at His Father's right hand, waiting for his enemies to be made his footstool (Heb 10) was His work completed.

Then, we have Pentecost. And that changes everything for ever.

 2005/11/24 6:40









 Re: Born Again By What Means

Dear Jeff,

Please correct me if I've misunderstood you. You are saying that Tozer believed King David had been born again...?


I've been thinking about the scripture you quoted on p10 and I recognise the prayers in Psalm 119 as being very similar to what you or I might pray. But isn't that just it? When we begin to seek God, we bring an Old Covenant mindset to our thinking about Him. We can't help that, because we have guilt and are growing more and more aware of our sins and sinfulness.

29 Remove from me the way of lying,
And grant me Your law graciously.

35 Make me walk in the path of Your commandments,
For I delight in it.
36 Incline my heart to Your testimonies,
And not to covetousness.


And under the Old Covenant, men and women knew they could not rid themselves of sin. They had to sacrifice. If they stopped thinking in a particular way, it would have been because God had put it in their minds; that's how [i]prophecy[/i worked/works, for instance, but they could not 'do' anything of themselves. The whole weight of the prayers is upon God to do it for them.

Then, [u]in Christ, HE DID come and do it for them[/u]. But the way we pray under the New Covenant is very different, is it not?

 2005/11/24 6:51
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
I understand this verse to mean that until Christ had returned to heaven, the Holy Spirit was not available to be poured out.



Brother, These are good points. I did not mean to suggest that anyone here was deficient in preaching the New Birth. Rather I spoke of some circles who emphasis the Gifts and miricals and works of power to the neglect of Christ as our indwelling inner Life.

If John 20:21 were not in the Bible it would be much simpler. We would just take all the promises that Jesus Made in John 7 and John 14-16 concerning the Spirit as our indwelling Life and lump them in with "the Promise of the Father" and the day of Pentecost.

But John 20 does not allow this. Some who are determined to cleave to their view that it all happened at pentecost have demonstrated various ways of explaiing this verse such as "a pledge". But there is nothing in the text to suggest such a thing but the plain text offers up the conclusion that Christ breathed to them the Holy Spirit as He said and they recieved the Holy Spirit just as He said.

Just as in Genesis 2 God breathed into Adam the breath of life, So here the Resurrected Christ has "breathed into them the Eternal Life".

I have no problem with seeing two events. One inward, the other outward. In every case in reference to the promise of Pentecost it is said, "upon, clothed with, baptised (immersed into), etc. all words which indicate something external or an envoronment. Like being immersed in water. Or having the Spirit poured out upon you.

But the promise of John 14 is different. It says, "He shall be in you". In none of the references to the Spirit in John 14 is the words "upon, clothed with, or poured out upon" used. Rather John in his gospel uses words such as "whoso shall drink of the water I shall give Him". And "He who beieves into Me, out of His innermost being shall flow rivers of living water", and "He who eats me shall live because of Me." All phrases which speak of the inner life and inner indwelling of the Spirit. They imply a taking in, a recieveing, a drinking, an eating. And these are related to Life (by LIfe I mean the eternal Life of God), and not power for service or doing miricals. This is significant.

In fact both the gospel of John and his epistles emphasis the eternal Life, the new birth, the fellowship of the Divine Life, Living Water, Christ as our food and drink, and all things related to the inner Life. This is John's burden.

I suggest the Scriptures present a broader picture than our common theologies allow for. But we must take the Word and hold our theological constructs and our dearly held concepts up to It's light and not the other way around.

Graftedbranch













 2005/11/24 10:44Profile





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