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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born Again By What Means

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Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
This doctrine of teaching about "typology" limits one's understanding of what is really going on in the OT.



It is Paul in the New Testament which utilizes the Old testament in the way of types and shadows. For instance in 1 corinthians we are told that the Rock which followed them (in the wilderness) was Christ. We are told that Christ is our Passover. We are told that Christ is the Manna. The Old testament is used in the New Testament extensively in the way of Types and pictures and shadows of the New Testament realities.

The book of Hebrews is full of references to the Old Testament in the way of Types. Such as "Melchesidek being a type of Christ as the Hight priest." And the Good land being a type of the believers rest in Christ.

In fact in Galatians 4:22-25 in the passage under question, Paul states specifically that this is a type in vs. 24 "These things are spoken allegorically, for these women are two covenants, one from Mount Sinai, bringing forth children unto slavery, which is Hagar..."

This is a New Testament principle of interpreting the Old Testament. It is not a new thing. It is derived from the Scriptures themselves.

We cannot apply the Old Testament to ourselves today in the way it was applied to those who lived under the Old Covenant. We have to interpret and apply the Old testament in light of the New Testament and in the principle of the New Testament as those who are under the New covenant.

Today there is no outward temple, there are no sacrafices, there is no Shekinah glory manifest in the Tabernackle. There is today only Christ. And Christ is the end of the Law for rightousness to them that believe. Christ is the substance of all the types and shadows of the Old testament.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/23 11:52Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Jesus according to Scripture is the same always, just as the Father and Holy Spirit. There is nothing new. God cannot become greater than He is.



Intrinsically as God Christ is immutable, He is unchanging and eternal. But who can deny that in God's economy, "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us?" And as 1 cor. 15:45 speaking of Christ in resurrection, "The Last Adam became a Life Giving Spirit".

These are two "becommings" of Christ. Before Christ's incarnation he was only God, He did not have a human nature. In incarnation He became a man. Something he was not before, He did not have humanity, He had only divinity.

In His Divine nature Christ is unchanging and immutable. But in taking on created humanity he subjected himself to the limitations of humanity. He grew, he hungered, he was thirsty, he was crucified and died. His glory was concealed and only revealed on the mount of Transfiguration briefly of which John testified, "We beheld His glory, Glory as of the Only begotton of the Father". And Peter in his epistle testifies of the same.

Glory is God expressed, The Glory of God was concealed in Christ. By death his Glory was released and in resurrection his dead humanity was permeated with the Divine Glory.

In Resurrection Christ's humanity entered into the Divine glory.

And in the end as those who have partaken of Christ, we too shall share in His glory.

2 Thess 2:14 "To which also He called you through our gospel unto the obtaining of the Glory of our Lord Jesus Christ"

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/23 12:28Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:

Quote:
It is Paul in the New Testament which utilizes the Old testament in the way of types and shadows. For instance in 1 corinthians we are told that the Rock which followed them (in the wilderness) was Christ. We are told that Christ is our Passover. We are told that Christ is the Manna. The Old testament is used in the New Testament extensively in the way of Types and pictures and shadows of the New Testament realities.




I see it in a different light. Paul uses these examples to point out where one should go to understand what he is talking about. I believe that Jesus revealed the meaning of the Scriptures that Paul already knew in the OT. We see another example of this thought when Jesus walked with two disciples on the road to Emmaus. Jesus did not reveal anything new but revealed Himself in the OT Scriptures. Their hearts burned within them. The word of God revealed will not fail to accomplish what was intended.

Have you ever searched for the "Rock" in OT Scriptures?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/23 12:32Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
I see it in a different light. Paul uses these examples to point out where one should go to understand what he is talking about.



The light we should have is the Light given us in the Scritpures. In the passages aluded to, Paul is using the OT in the way of Types. "Christ our passover has been sacrificed" etc.
And expecially in Galatians 4:22-21 He specifically tells us he is using these scritpures "allagorically" That is as a type.

Brother, we need to understand the Word in light of the Word and in the Way the Word shows us and according to the usage of the OT in the New.

Your view is not in accordance with the usage of the OT in the New. IT ignores the plain reality that the NT uses the OT in the way of Types and shadows.

Surely the Old Testament is literal and its events are literal in the record, But their signifigance to us is in typology and the revelation of Christ int them as Christ is the reality of all the types and shadows and pictures in the Old Testament.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/23 12:46Profile









 Re: Born Again By What Means

Quote:
First Sis, it is not my desire or intent to force any belief of mine upon you. What I have found in Scripture this I too have struggled with for a long time. The struggle is always between what I thought once and what Scripture is revealing now. Many times it does not agree with what men teach now.

Hi Jeff,

First let me say I understand how tempting it is to make the interpretion that you are, but, in view of the timing of the prophetic promise of a new heart and a new spirit in Jeremiah, (31:30 - 34), I really don't see how you can suggest these things had already happened for some people....

Also, I think our recent generations have no concept of how real God was to people back then. They were [i]very[/i] aware of sin. How could they forget, when so many sacrifices had to be made - [i]daily[/i], [u]and for every single sin[/u], somehow?

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

The writer to the Hebrews is very clear about the previous system of sacrifices being unable to do what Christ's sacrifice accomplished.

Hebrews 9

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people: 8 the Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all [u]was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing[/u]: 9 which was [u]a figure for the time then present[/u], in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that [u]could not[/u] make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


Here we see that even the priest himself was not made perfect by the old sacrificial system.....

 2005/11/23 13:25









 Re: Born Again By What Means

Again, bro, you have to contend with Paul's very clear statement here....

Titus 3

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy [u]he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing [b]of the Holy Ghost; [/u][/b]6[b] which he shed on us abundantly [u]through Jesus Christ our Saviour[/u]; [/b]7[b] that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according [u]to the hope of eternal life[/b][/u].


Again, there is

Hebrews 11

39 And these [b][u]all[/u] having obtained a good report [u]through faith[/u], received [u]not[/u] the promise[/b]: 40 God having provided some [b]better thing [u]for us[/u], that they [u]without us[/u] should [u]not[/u] be made [u]perfect[/u][/b]. [perfect=complete]

 2005/11/23 13:39
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sis wrote:

Quote:
I acknowledge that King David had a prophetic understanding of the work of Christ, including when God would not impute sin to him, but, to claim that he was born again - or that anyone in the Old Testament was born again - puts John 3 into a different light... not necessarily a correct one.



A.W. Tozer believed as I do. I am not alone.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/23 17:04Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:


Quote:
The book of Hebrews is full of references to the Old Testament in the way of Types. Such as "Melchesidek being a type of Christ as the Hight priest." And the Good land being a type of the believers rest in Christ.



Melchezedec is Christ.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=978&forum=36&97


In Christ
Jeff



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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/23 17:11Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Joh 20:22
And kai when he had said epw this touto, he breathed on (emjusaw) them, and kai saith legw unto them autoV, Receive ye (lambanw) the Holy agioV Ghost pneuma:

(emjusaw) 1720. emphusao
Search for G1720 in KJVSL
emjusaw emphusao em-foo-sah'-o

from 1722 and phusao (to puff) (compare 5453); to blow at or on:--breathe on.

Do you see anything that says He breathed the Holy Spirit into them. He could not, for the Holy Spirit Had Not come from the Father until Pentecost.

(lambanw) 2983. lambano Receive Ye the Holy Spirit
Search for G2983 in KJVSL
lambanw lambano lam-ban'-o

a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses; to take (in very many applications, literally and figuratively (properly objective or active, to get hold of; whereas 1209 is rather subjective or passive, to have offered to one; while 138 is more violent, to seize or remove)):--accept, + be amazed, assay, attain, bring, X when I call, catch, come on (X unto), + forget, have, hold, obtain, receive (X after), take (away, up).

In any tense or any context this word; receive ye, does not mean the indwelling of Holy Spirit as in Acts 2 in being filled.

Ac 2:4
And kai they were plhqw all apaV filled (plhqw)with the Holy agioV Ghost pneuma, and kai began arcomai to speak with lalew other eteroV tongues glwssa, as kaqwV the Spirit pneuma gave didwmi them autoV utterance apojqeggomai.

(plhqw)filled; 4130. pletho
Search for G4130 in KJVSL
plhqw pletho play'-tho pleo pleh'-o (which appears only as an alternate in certain tenses and in the reduplicated form pimplemi)

to "fill" (literally or figuratively (imbue, influence, supply)); specially, to fulfil (time):--accomplish, full (...come), furnish.

This is when the Holy Spirit filled the believers that were waiting in the upper room to receive the Promise Christ had given of the Comforter the Father would send at the prayer request of Jesus Christ.

Even then still they did not understand what had happened, it took Jesus Christ and His intervention by direct revelation to Paul to explain that Christ Himself and His Spirit was now birthed in the believers, and that the Holy Spirit is not Jesus Christ and that He, the Holy Spirit would reveal all truth about Christ in you the Hope of Glory and that He The Holy Spirit is One that gives the Gifts of Christ to man and distributes them as He, the Holy Spirit pleases.

1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit , dividing to every man severally as He will .

This is the Holy Spirit as "He will," not the Spirit of Christ.

Christ and His Spirit thereof is the Seed that is Born Again in the Believer, any time you see the Spirit referred to as being completed it is the Spirit of Christ and anytime you see The Spirit working or moving or teaching or giving truth, It is the Holy Spirit doing His work in us, the Work of Christ has already been accomplished on the Cross, in Him a New birth, a new creation race of People, Christ-ones. Jesus Christ is our life, the Holy Spirit is the teacher, mover, power and worker in us of this Christ Life.

1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Ephesians 3:4-5 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;



Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Revealed, this is the work of the Holy Spirit, this is not the Spirit of Christ that has been birthed in us. The Holy Spirit after Pentecost is always the Worker in us. Christ was the Worker when He was with them, that is why He had to leave so the Holy Spirit would come. Christ said, "We have no need to fast as long as He is with us" but we need to fast always because we want Him to be not only in us, but with us, this is our Fasting.

Luk 5:34 And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?

Luk 5:35 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2005/11/23 17:15Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother wrote:

Quote:
In fact in Galatians 4:22-25 in the passage under question, Paul states specifically that this is a type in vs. 24 "These things are spoken allegorically, for these women are two covenants, one from Mount Sinai, bringing forth children unto slavery, which is Hagar..."



Gal. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

Is this true or not? One is either adopted into the kingdom or one remains in bondage to sin. What promise allows us to enter into the kingdom?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/23 17:17Profile





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