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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born Again By What Means

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Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
There is another place in the book of John where Jesus prays to the Father that He be glorified and this takes place well after John 7.



The Lord Jesus prayed in John 17 that the Father would "glorify Him with the glory which He ever had with Him before the world was."

This was just prior to His crucifixion and resurrection. He was glorifed in resurrection (Acts 3:13-15). Resurrection was His glorification (1 cor. ch. 15). Resurrection was the Father's answer to His prayer in John 17. His glorification was completed in His ascention where He had bestowed upon HIm the Name which is above every Name. "This Jesus whom you crucified, God has made both Lord and Christ". He was glorified intrinsically in resurrection and extrinsically (outwardly) in ascention.

That the outpouring of the Spirit is directly related to Christ's exaltation is evident in Acts2:33 "Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having recieved of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, He hast poured forth this, which you see and hear"

Watchman Nee says concerning this verse "Because the Lord Jesus died on the Cross, I have recieved forgiveness of sins; because the Lord Jesus rose from the dead, I have recieved new life; because the Lord Jesus has been exalted to the right hand of the Father, I have recieved the outpoured Spirit. All is because of HIm. Nothing is because of me." The Norman Christian Life pg. 88

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/22 18:46Profile









 Re: Born Again By What Means


Hi Jeff,

I acknowledge that King David had a prophetic understanding of the work of Christ, including when God would not impute sin to him, but, to claim that he was born again - or that anyone in the Old Testament was born again - puts John 3 into a different light... not necessarily a correct one.

 2005/11/23 9:34
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
I am sure that following His "breathing into them" they went and told the others and they too experienced the reality of the indwelling resurrected Christ. Not in the outward way of the rushing mighty wind which was to come, but of the inward work of the Spirit regenerating them and bringing them into the reality of the Divine Sonship.



So one set recieved by being breathed on and the others by the telling of it?

Was not this a pledge prior to that which was poured out? Something seems amiss with "[i]Not in the outward way of the rushing mighty wind which was to come[/i]"

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

What about Thomas then?

[b]And saith unto them, receive ye the Holy Ghost[/b]; meaning not the grace of the Holy Ghost in regeneration, which they had received already; but the gifts of the Spirit, to qualify them for the work he now sent them to do, and which were not now actually bestowed; but this breathing on them, and the words that attended it, were a symbol, pledge, and confirmation, of what they were to receive on the day of Pentecost: hence it appears, that it is the Spirit of God, who, by his gifts and grace, makes and qualifies men to be ministers of the Gospel; and our Lord by this action, and these words, gives a very considerable proof of his deity: the Papists show their impudence and wickedness, in imitating Christ by their insufflations, or breathing on men; pretending thereby to convey the Holy Spirit to them.

(p) Targum in 2 Chron. xxxiii. 13.

John Gill



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Mike Balog

 2005/11/23 10:11Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
What about Thomas then?



John 20:26,27 And after eight days, His diciples were again within, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, though the doors were shut, and stood in the midst and said, Peace be to you. Then He said to Thomas, Bring your finger here and see My hands, and bring your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing"

John 20:26,27 tells us Thomas was yet, 'unbelieving'. The Lord said to him ... And do not be unbelieveing but believing.

Paul in Romans tells us, "if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead you shall be saved."

We are regenerated when we believe in our heart that God has raised Him from the dead.

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/23 10:34Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Sister Dorcas wrote:

Quote:
I don't believe the Holy Spirit enabled him to stop walking in sin, such that he had now no need to partake ever again of the sacrifices or the Day of Atonement.



First Sis, it is not my desire or intent to force any belief of mine upon you. What I have found in Scripture this I too have struggled with for a long time. The struggle is always between what I thought once and what Scripture is revealing now. Many times it does not agree with what men teach now.

For example, I once listened to sermons that were recommended here at SI by Zac Poonen and in one of his teachings he said the same thing that you have said. Poonen teaches that God did not provide the means by which men could satisfy His law until the day of Pentecost. Yet in the Psalms I hear men asking God for the grace to enable them to overcome their sin. These are the Holy Scriptures divinely given to us. The prayers written down in Psalm 119 were sung over and over and over by those who lived in the OT times. Does not the word of God have power upon those who hear? Would not those who sung the Psalm 119 ask the same question that I myself am asking at this very moment in time?

There is an old saying in Calvary Chapel bible college teaching, where God calls He provides. Search the Scriptures, seek to hear the prayers of the saints of the OT times. The mystery of Godliness spoken by Paul to Timothy are found in the OT Scriptures.

Keep on keepin on Sister.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/23 11:13Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Thomas, the slighted disciple

Have always had a rather large problem with the rap Thomas gets, none of the other disciples were yet 'believing' prior to seeing the risen Lord either. Certainly they were all confused, scarred and in great apprehension. What seems to get missed is something that we all could learn from... he didn't take anyones word for it. "[i]Untill I see...[/i]

Just as well the point [i]is[/i] what the Lord said, but it is also what He had been saying all along, before he was crucified.

One of things often forgotten is how it was also Thomas who said "Let us go and die with Him". Confused, yes. But "doubting", I think it's on the wrong lines...


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Mike Balog

 2005/11/23 11:27Profile
rookie
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 Re:

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:

Quote:
The Lord Jesus prayed in John 17 that the Father would "glorify Him with the glory which He ever had with Him before the world was."



John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,

John 17:4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

John 17:10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

John 17:22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

John 17:24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.


We often speak of the glory of the cross and look at this moment in time and say, "from this point forward does God provide." Yet there is more to this thought. Jesus prays to the Father to "restore" the glory that was temporarily given up by Him, so that He might accomplish the work that was foreordained before the foundations of the world. The glory Christ had after the cross is no different than the glory He posssessed before He became man.

So if one's doctrine limits Christ's work the glory that came after the cross, then does one really believe in the doctrine of the Trinity? This is not meant as an attack but just to point out what do we really believe and why.

Based on Scripture we know that Christ asked the Father to give back to Him the glory that He had prior to becoming man. The nature of the glory that Christ speaks about in John 17 speaks of those whom He saves. The spiritual precept of becoming one with Christ and the Father goes back to Genesis 3:15 does it not?

I'll stop for now

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/23 11:29Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
So if one's doctrine limits Christ's work the glory that came after the cross, then does one really believe in the doctrine of the Trinity? This is not meant as an attack but just to point out what do we really believe and why.



Yes indeed, Christ's glory which he laid aside was restored to Him. Only there is a new element. It is the same glory but that glory is now restored to Christ as the resurrected God/man. In His resurrection His humanity was glorifed with the Divine Glory. And in ascension, He as a Man was "given the Name which is above every Name".

It is the same glory but this Christ who is eternally the Only begotton Son of God and shared in the Father's glory, has become in incarnation a man and as a man He was crucified and resurrected as the Firstborn Son of God and now is enthroned. There is a Man in the glory.

And we too according to 2 Thess. 2:14 are destined to share in His Glory.

"To which also he called you through our gospel unto the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Graftedbranch

 2005/11/23 11:41Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:

Quote:
Issac was born of Abraham according to the flesh, but He was the child of the promise. Issac is a type or picture of being "born of the Spirit'and Ishmael of one "born of the flesh, just as Issac was a type of Christ being offered on Mt Moriah. It is typology.



This doctrine of teaching about "typology" limits one's understanding of what is really going on in the OT. I once accepted the doctrine of typology. But this is a very superficial attempt to explain what is really going on.

There is a spiritual precept throughtout Scriptures which teaches that man either grows in the likeness of Satan his father or repents and is born, is adopted by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Search for the Scriptures where Jesus speaks about what it means to become one with the Father and Himself.

If one grows in the likeness of Jesus he or she actually begins to reflect His nature here on earth. This spiritual oneness I believe is reflected throughout Scripture. So when one speaks of typologies and applies it to various individuals of the OT, I see it as the real thing. I see Christ and His work in these examples. Scripture is given to us so that we might see and understand. The Spirit of God has always desired to transform man into the image of His Son.


In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/23 11:41Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Graftedbranch wrote:

Quote:
Yes indeed, Christ's glory which he laid aside was restored to Him. Only there is a new element.



Jesus according to Scripture is the same always, just as the Father and Holy Spirit. There is nothing new. God cannot become greater than He is.

Question:

What did Jesus do with His glory before He became man?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/11/23 11:51Profile





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