The Bible records the history of man's growing relationship with God. As we have come up from primative times, the relationship evolved and this is reflected in the differing presentation styles and progression of the books within it.
It is inspired by God and recorded and passed down through the generations by fallible man.
Yet, it is full of Truths and provides the basis for understanding and accepting salvation from sin through the teachings and sacrifice of Christ Jesus. It is worthy of study and consideration in the guidance of our lives and provides many fine examples of how people have dealt with this sinful and evil world.
It teaches universal, unconditional love, and that is the most important thing in it.
Yet, it is full of Truths and provides the basis for understanding and accepting salvation from sin through the teachings and sacrifice of Christ Jesus.
The Gospels reinforce one another and yes, I believe they are historically accurate.Bub
Dear Ron,I understand your fears and why you would not want to walk down the same road as Barth. However, I do not believe that because the bible was written by fallible men that it is untrustworthy. Rather, what this shows is how powerful God is to be able to use fallible men and women to deliver His message. I must say that I do not believe the bible is the Word of God. Immediately, this probably sets you back a few steps and causes you to question me, as you have said. I understand your fear especially since you are established in your belief that the bible is the Word of God. Please open your heart and listen to what I have to say first. Take my words to Christ and pray over them. May He speak to your heart. My intention is not to make the bible incredible, but to make Christ greater. As I have said many times, I love the bible. I do not think it is incredible or unreliable. I believe that Christ is supreme. John 1:1-14 (KJ)1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended F1 it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power F2 to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.Some points I would like to highlight: "the Word was God" and "And the Word was made flesh".I do not think I need to argue that these scriptures are referring to Jesus Christ who is God and God's Word. It does not come out and say, "Jesus is God." However, "the Word was God" and "the Word was made flesh." When you say the bible is God's Word, then according to this scripture you saying that the bible is God. Do you believe that the bible is God? In addition to this, when you say the bible is God's Word, then what you are saying is that it is the words of God. The bible was written by men. They are the words of men. And so, when you say the bible is God's Word, then you are saying the men who wrote the bible are God. Do you believe Paul and John are God? I am sure you believe Jesus is God. There is a statement above that makes clear what the bible is. John says, "He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light." The bible bears witness to Jesus Christ. There is a significant difference between saying this and the bible is God's Word. The bible is just a witness. It is a message carried by messengers. The message comes from God. However, the messengers are God's people. The bible is a revelation. A revelation reveals. The bible reveals God's Word. However, the bible is not God's Word.The bible is the words of the writers. For example, the bible is the words of Paul. He spoke under influence of the Holy Spirit. He was a witness to Jesus. He was not Jesus. You are also a messenger of Christ. I have heard God speak through you to me on occasion. Your words were inspired by God as He revealed them to you. Does this make you God? Does this mean I can't believe your words because you are fallible? I do admit that I don't trust anyone easily. However, your words were revealed true to me not because they came from you, but because Jesus in me affirmed your words in me. This may be complicated to grasp. I am not saying the bible, or you, become God's Word at any time. I am not saying the bible or you ever become God. Rather, what I am saying is that God who is in me takes the message from the bible and confirms it in me. You must understand, the same Holy Spirit that filled the writers of the bible, like Paul, is the same Holy Spirit inside of you and me. The Holy Spirit is the same, but our experiences of it are different. The Holy Spirit reveals the same truth, (Jesus is the truth). However, our interpretation of the truth is different. We all serve the same God, but we each worship Him in different ways. When you say the bible has authority, you are elevating to the level of God, and you are also saying that there are more than one God. There is only one God, one authority, ruling over all. If you say the bible has authority, then the bible is God. If the bible is not God, then you are saying there is one God, the bible, and then another God, Jesus. This is not true. You once said that the testimony of Paul and the apostles is greater than mine or yours. This cannot be true because you are saying there are two Holy Spirits and two Christs. Paul and the apostles have one Christ who is greater than the Christ we have. There is one Christ, who lives in all Christians. The Christ in Paul and John is not greater than the Christ in your or me. It is the same Christ. Let me also address the scriptures you quoted:Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. (Mark 7:13, KJVS)If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; (John 10:35, KJVS)In both these scriptures, Jesus is referencing the law. And at that time, the law could not be broken. Jesus had not died to set us free from our sins. The law still had power and authority. Before Christ died, the law was the word of God. Men did not write the law. God wrote the law on two tablets with His own fingers. God wrote the law. The law was so Holy, it was preserved in the ark in the center of the temple. The law was final and it had authority. The law is the basis for which all things will be judged. The scripture, the law, the word of God cannot be broken. However, Jesus gave His life so that we may be set free from the law through His death. This is the message you preached to me. Therefore, we have been set free from the law as an authority, so that we can obey it in truth. Before we died with Christ, the law had authority over us. We were condemned by it. However, when Christ set us free, the law no longer had authority over us. Rather, we have submitted ourselves unto the authority of Christ. The bible has no authority over us. Rather, Christ has authority over us. This was done so that we could live up to the law in truth. The law is based upon love. However, love is a choice. The problem with the law is that it removes our choice. The law says. You must do this or else you will die. How can anyone show love if it is forced? Rather, now that we are free from the law, we can obey it in love. We can choose to believe in Gods Word. We can choose Christ. We can choose to live up to the law. By giving the bible authority, you are removing all of what Christ has done for us. You are saying, The bible is Gods Word, it has authority greater than you, and it is what you must follow and do. When people follow the law or abide by the bible because of the bibles authority, then they are not doing it out of love. They are doing it because they must, because they have to. Rather, we should be filled with love and choose to do Gods will by choice. There is only one authority. He is Jesus Christ. We should follow Him. If we truly follow Christ, then we will also accept the bible in love. We know that the bible is inspired by God. It is one tool of many that Christ uses to spread His message. The bible is not the truth, it bears witness to the truth. By this, the bible can be used for teaching and instructing. If the bible were the truth, it could be used to command and force. However, the bible cannot force anything on anyone. The bible has no authority and exhibits no power apart from Christ. Ephesians 4:4-6 (KJ) 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
What we have then is a highly dubious testimony of a fallible eyewitnesses and we are dependent upon the person who bears the witness
Dear Ron,I wanted to comment on this quote, even though it wasn't directed to me. I hope you don't mind.
But how can you believe it when it teaches such things, knowing that it has been recorded and passed down through generations by fallible man?
If you reject Christ's witness, through the outbreathed words of God as contained in the scripture, you are perishing and this is not the first time I have tried to warn you of your perilous position.
Dear Ron,I am nothing and certainly the least of everyone. And it is known on this board that I have erred. But, I make a plea with you in love as your brother to think about your words carefully. Are these words of encouragement?
Your 'light', bubbaguy, is 'darkness'.
I am nothing and certainly the least of everyone. And it is known on this board that I have erred. But, I make a plea with you in love as your brother to think about your words carefully. Are these words of encouragement?
Dear Ron,I know exactly where Blake is coming from, because the Bible was virtually meaningless to me until the Holy Spirit began to enlighten my hearing and interpret it to my spirit and mind.ALL of us need to have our minds renewed by the Spirit. We are ALL moving towards having 'the mind of Christ' but God begins His work in each of us at the point most needful, because He knows the BEST order in which to bring us round more and more to His way of thinking. He SEES the keystones which must be pulled, so that our false ideals and ideologies will crumble most efficiently, allowing [i]Him[/i] to build us up in the most holy faith. In saying this, I am fully accepting of the authority of scripture, to those who have scripture in their hands, but, I am concerned at the emphasis you put on it, seeing not only was Paul not with the twelve, (although he knew the Old Testament writings very well) but, there are literally thousands of Christians who have chosen to die for Christ's Name, who have never held a Bible in their hands. They do so even today, such is the power of the manifestation of His Spirit and presence in their life. NO-ONE dies for an ideal which has never got below their neck. But, they would die for the Life which has come to them through repentance and faith and taken away all their sins, bringing them into fellowship with the Father.All true Christians who know the Lord, have to bring the witness of the Spirit to bear OVER AND ABOVE what their mind tells them. This is how the mind is renewed (partly). And while I agree it is possible (know people who do) subject the truth of scripture to their fallen mind, and thereby reject it, not one of us can claim (nor would it be scriptural to do so) that from the moment of conversion, we have the full mind of Christ. But what we DO have, is a burning witness of His presence that changes us and how we deal with familiar situations which used to cause us to sin, fall, or fail. Other people notice this. We know we have been changed - [u]by the relationship with God Himself[/u].Making this claim is not anti-scripturist. It is the only explanation for the meaning in the New Covenant promise - which I know you know.saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall [u]know[/u] [b]me[/b], from the least to the greatest. (Hebrews 8 KJV)If I could give an example here from my own experience. Please respect the fact I don't share this often and probably won't post about it again - but it came to me today as the only legitimate example I have, which closely mirrors the issue we are discussing.When I was three, I was given a beautiful book with Bible stories and gorgeous pictures. It was big, and we had to sit at a table to look at it. I remember the angels standing round the garden of Eden and the fiery sword turning in all directions to guard the way to the tree of life. Did this mean anything to me? Well, God thought it meant enough, for, the day after an extremely traumatic experience, He sent an angel to show His interest in me. There are two ways I knew what I was seeing was an angel. Firstly, he looked like one of the angels in the picture. Secondly, I was terrified - just like the shepherds in the field.Years later, when i recalled this (or the Lord brought it back to my mind), I realised I could hardly remember the picture in the book, but I can STILL remember the fear, and hiding, and my disappointment mixed with relief that when I took courage to look again, he had gone. My point is this: I remember the transluscent being whom I saw, as if it happened yesterday. I have never sought to see him again, but I am completely convinced I saw him then. I don't worship him. I worship God - the God who makes Himself [i]known[/i] to me outside the page.Please, let me reiterate, I am not suggesting anyone who owns a Bible stops reading it, or stops asking the Lord to make it make sense, but, this portion of the day when one reads the written word, forms a minority of the average Christian's life and the rest of the time, they are not [u]being[/u] a Christian because of what they can remember, but rather, because of the assistance of the Holy Ghost, and their fellowship with the Father and with the Son.
The Gospels reinforce one another and yes, I believe they are historically accurate.
I do admit that I don't trust anyone easily. However, your words were revealed true to me not because they came from you, but because Jesus in me affirmed your words in me.
Before Christ died, the law was the word of God.
You once said that the testimony of Paul and the apostles is greater than mine or yours. This cannot be true because you are saying there are two Holy Spirits and two Christs. Paul and the apostles have one Christ who is greater than the Christ we have.