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PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Hmm I am very tempted to start a discussion on Creationism, but I'll let the websites I mentioned show the facts.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2005/10/19 12:12Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ron,

Yes, my dear friend, I believe in the triune God. It seems there is no adequate way to state that without someone arguing about the way I said it. Lol.

Quote:
but as it stands it leaves your personal conviction as the ultimate authority.



How so?

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/10/19 16:53Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

because of this statement from a recent post of yours

Quote:
know this is true, not because the bible says so, but because Christ within me affirms this. He is my shepard.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/19 17:10Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ron,

I know what you are referencing. I am trying to understand how you make the connection between the two.

How does my statement make personal conviction the ultimate authority?

What do you mean by "personal conviction"?
What is the ultimate authority?

Additionally, when Paul and other writers wrote the scriptures, they were writing from thier personal experiences with Christ. The four gospels are four personal testimonies of Christ. Are they not?

I am sorry if I seem a bit frustrating. I am trying to listen and make sure I hear you correctly.

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/10/19 23:13Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Additionally, when Paul and other writers wrote the scriptures, they were writing from thier personal experiences with Christ. The four gospels are four personal testimonies of Christ. Are they not?

Indeed they are, but they are not ONLY that. They are the breathed out words of God. As “the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake” (Acts 1:16, KJVS) so the Holy Spirit spoke by the writings of these men in a definitive way. The recorded testimony of these men is not of the same 'order' as my testimony nor yours.

Quote:
What do you mean by "personal conviction"?
What is the ultimate authority?

By 'personal conviction' in the context of this thread I mean your own personal 'witness' that God has revealed truth to you independent of any biblical source or confirmation.

By ultimate authority, I mean that the scripture is the final court of authority and by them all our 'personal convictions' must be judged.

You're not frustrating, not to me at any rate. I think you are putting your own 'convictions' which you believe to be from God on the same level as propositional revelation as we find it in the scripture. If I am mistaken in that please correct me and tell me why you are not prepared to accept the scriptures as the final court of appeal.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/20 3:59Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Ron,

I see. Now I understand what you are saying.

Quote:
I think you are putting your own 'convictions' which you believe to be from God on the same level as propositional revelation as we find it in the scripture. If I am mistaken in that please correct me and tell me why you are not prepared to accept the scriptures as the final court of appeal.



Yes and No. Let me explain:

The scripture holds revelation. However, the revelation of the scripture means nothing to me, unless it is revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. I guess another way you could say this: the scripture is my personal conviction. God reveals things to me through the scripture, but not only through the scripture.

When I read the scripture, the Holy Spirit reveals unto me what it says. Therefore, scripture becomes my personal conviction.

However, if I read the scripture apart from the Holy Spirit, then the scripture reveals to me whatever I want it to reveal to me. By this, the scripture becomes my own personal interpretation.

Do you see the difference?

Quote:
By ultimate authority, I mean that the scripture is the final court of authority and by them all our 'personal convictions' must be judged.



I am sorry, but I happen to disagree with you on this. (I am nothing. Though I disagree, I respect you.) I believe Jesus Christ is the ultimate authority.

In Romans 13, Paul stated that we should submit ourselves unto the authorities above us.

Romans 13:1 (KJ) "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

And yet, Martin Luther defied this very scripture by protesting the Catholic Church. He was not the first or the last. It was widely believe at the time that the bible should not have a single word changed, not even to be translated into another language. They felt this was an immense sin. And so, when Tyndale translated the bible into English, they killed him.

I believe in all my heart that Tyndale and Luther were submitting unto the will of Christ holding Him as the ultimate authority. However, the men they protested against were holding the bible (thier own interpretation of it) as the ultimate authority.

The Holy Spirit spoke through King David and the writers of the bible. He used these writers to spread His message. Likewise, the Holy Spirit uses people today. Have you never heard His voice in someone? Have you not ever had an experience where someone said something to you, and you knew it was the Lord speaking to you?

When Christ speaks, whether through the bible or another person, is it not all by the same authority? Or is the bible always greater?

Saying the bible is the final court of appeal scares me. Christ died to set us free from the law. He died, so that we could be forgiven. As you showed me, Christ died so that we might die with Him and in that, we die to the law.

Why would Christ set us free from the law, only to institute another law?

The old testament scriptures were the law. Before Christ came, the scriptures were the law. The Pharisees judged everything in accord to the scripture. By this, they were able to use the law to benefit thier own selfish desires. In the same way, the bible can be used to benefit our own selfish desires.

However, if we first submit unto Christ, we will follow Him. We will not only accept the bible into our heart, but we will be able to discern the truth in it. If we hold Christ as the ultimate authority, then He will direct our path. He will direct our path by revealing truth in scripture as well as speaking to us through other people.

I do understand what you saying. Not all our thoughts, convictions, passions, and feelings come from God. And so, how can we tell what is from God and what is not?

Your answer is to say that the bible is the primary revelation, and we should check everything against it. I do agree with you to a certain degree. God is not a god of conflict or confusion. And so, the bible is a good way to test different thoughts and philosophies. If our thoughts or convictions conflict with the bible, we should be very wary of thoughts or convictions.

However, before checking our convictions against the bible, don't you think we should first turn to Christ and submit unto His authority? Should we not pray and ask Christ first?

Additionally, God speaks to us in more ways than just through the bible. If our conviction conflicts with the bible, and we have prayed about it, is it not good to also bring it before other believers? Is it also not good to check ourselves against the Church? Should not the Church be united?

However, if we have done all these things, and the Lord is still pushing us, then should we not listen to Him?

I must admit that I am quick to follow every conviction laid on my heart. And for that I am guilty. I am learning to be patient and wait on the Lord. If the Lord really wants us to do something, He will affirm us. Like Jonah, He will not leave us alone until it is done.

I believe people should always do the will of God first and foremost. They should always follow Christ first and foremost.

Thanks for sharing,
I will pray more about this and take your every word to heart.

Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2005/10/20 9:59Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Blake
What you are saying is that the scripture only becomes the word of God when it becomes the word of God to you, personally. That is [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=3939&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Barthianism.[/url] Here is a test for you. "God is Spirit" Is that true or is it true when you believe it? You use the phrase 'the scripture holds revelation', Barth (and Bubbaguy, and you will see where it has taken him.) would have said 'the scripture holds the word of God' but is not the word of God in itself. Barth believed that the scriptures were the testimony of men and women to the 'word' of God' and not the word of God in themselves. The testimony of the scriptures might have some errors but the experience to which they testified was true. What we have then is a highly dubious testimony of a fallible eyewitnesses and we are dependent upon the person who bears the witness. This is why Bubbaguy rejects Paul's testimony in the scripture, because he cannot trust the man who Paul was.

Christ, who is the word of God, believed that the scriptures were the word of God “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.” (Mark 7:13, KJVS)

“If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;” (John 10:35, KJVS)In this latter quote the phrases 'the scriptures' and 'the word of God' are synonimous. Certainly a man's spirit taught by the Spirit of God will recognise the 'word of God' as he reads it in the scripture, but recognising is not the same as validating. The scriptures must validate the 'word of God' as it is apprehended in the human heart. A man's spirit taught by the Spirit of God will 'witness to' the same Spirit's testimony in the scriptures. In fact, if a man's spirit does not recognise the the scriptures as the 'word of God' I question who is instructing his spirit.

Quote:
And yet, Martin Luther defied this very scripture by protesting the Catholic Church. He was not the first or the last. It was widely believe at the time that the bible should not have a single word changed, not even to be translated into another language. They felt this was an immense sin. And so, when Tyndale translated the bible into English, they killed him.

I believe in all my heart that Tyndale and Luther were submitting unto the will of Christ holding Him as the ultimate authority. However, the men they protested against were holding the bible (thier own interpretation of it) as the ultimate authority.

This is a gross distortion of the historical record of the lives of these two men. Whatever your grasp of the theology of the word of God, your history grasp is completely flawed on this point. But it makes your position clear that you do not believe in what evangelicals call the 'verbal inspiration of scripture'. This most certainly puts you alongside Bubbaguy whose 'witness' has led him to believe that human beings changed their shape when the committed the original sin of eating fleshmeat. Bubbuguys witness has also led him to a belief in reincarnation and a denial of hell as eternal. He rejects the Revelation because he was no 'witness' to it, and a good part of the OT goes the same way. In fact, once a person takes your stance they are yielding to the 'ultimate authority' of their own convictions. They will call it the 'inner light' or the 'witness of the Spirit' but in reality when it comes down to the wire they will stake their own convictions against the revelation of the scripture.

Quote:
The Holy Spirit spoke through King David and the writers of the bible. He used these writers to spread His message. Likewise, the Holy Spirit uses people today. Have you never heard His voice in someone? Have you not ever had an experience where someone said something to you, and you knew it was the Lord speaking to you?

I have that experience all the time but I check what I think God is saying to me against the testimony of the scripture, my final authority. In fact the word 'likewise' is wrongly used in your comment above. No one today is creating scripture which would be the case if your argument were correct. The canon would not be closed which, in effect, is what you are saying by adding other equally authoritative revelation to the scriptures..

Quote:
When Christ speaks, whether through the bible or another person, is it not all by the same authority? Or is the bible always greater?

Hopefully, it is by the same author but not with the same authority. The 'scripture cannot be broken', this is not the same with current guidance that God may bring in any way he chooses.

Quote:
However, before checking our convictions against the bible, don't you think we should first turn to Christ and submit unto His authority? Should we not pray and ask Christ first?

I have never said that the Bible is the 'only' authority; that would be a misconception of my position. I am not even saying that it should always be the 'first' authority in chronological terms. But it must be first in the nature of its authority and must be last in the nature of its verdict.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/20 10:47Profile









 Re:

Ron, the problem you are ignoring is that we all have to interpret the bible when reading it. Blake is saying that he depends upon the Holy Spirit in doing so. Do you?

Bubbaguy

 2005/10/20 14:27
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Ron, the problem you are ignoring is that we all have to interpret the bible when reading it. Blake is saying that he depends upon the Holy Spirit in doing so. Do you?


Jake
I believe I do, but I believe in the Spirit led interpretation of a Spirit inspired Bible, do you?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/10/20 15:16Profile









 Re:

Ron,

The Bible records the history of man's growing relationship with God. As we have come up from primative times, the relationship evolved and this is reflected in the differing presentation styles and progression of the books within it. It is inspired by God and recorded and passed down through the generations by fallible man. Yet, it is full of Truths and provides the basis for understanding and accepting salvation from sin through the teachings and sacrifice of Christ Jesus. It is worthy of study and consideration in the guidance of our lives and provides many fine examples of how people have dealt with this sinful and evil world. It teaches universal, unconditional love, and that is the most important thing in it.

Bubbaguy (Jake)

 2005/10/20 16:59





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