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moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: healing

Quote:
I've seen this over and over again. Those who have been through the pain of the healing process, can relate, and are not so prone to judge and give unrealistic solutions.



It depends on what you mean by unrealistic solutions. I have been broken many times over and been through an excruciating healing process (with the help of the Lord and His word alone). Yet much of my counsel seems 'judgemental' or unrealistic to alot of people.

I think that it is beneficial to have those who have experienced pain and suffering and brokenness to help those who are hurting, but it doesn't have to be that way. It takes a compassionate heart, someone with a heart like Jesus and knows the Truth of His word.

I told this to Dorcas in a pm, but when I went through my healing process, I left the church system because I could discern that they wanted to counsel me in a 'humanistic' way. They wanted to give me excuses and lead me down the wrong path. I wanted the truth- even if it hurt. I wanted to be healed the right way, the way God intended. So I left and I let God Himself be my counselor. He was and He did. Seeing Him for who He really was for the first time, seeing my heart for what it was, seeing that I was clinging to worthless idols (yes, becuase i had been hurt, but once you know that, there is no excuse), I just held onto him and obeyed each step of the way. That's what it took.

Jesus was broken, He knows what pain, suffering, and rejection is like- how did He react? He said 'not My will but thine be done'. I know that people who need healing don't know this, but they can be taught this. Hurting people can be taught how to recieve healing in a biblical way. We just have to give them the truth, not the truth mixed with man's ideas and phsychology too.

Just because someone has not been through a person's exact situation, or been broken to the extreme that they have does not mean that they won't be able to counsel them. They just need to to know the truth of the word and know Jesus intimately. Of course it helps, no doubt.

I see from my own tragedys and experiences that i can discern and see a hurting person from a long way off- but my counsel would still be the same counsel God gave me- and yes, it does seem unrealistic to many, but God is not realistic. He is sovereign and Holy.

There is no other reason in the world that I could be speaking a couple of times a week to the 'other' women (the girl who my husband had an affair with). The Lord has given me the opportunity to share His love and light with her. To even be her friend and try to counsel her with her own marriage. To the human person this is impossible, it is unrealistic that I should forgive her so soon and even try to befriend her and help her. But Jesus asks that i lay my life down. He asks :will I give up my own comforts and feelings in order that she may be saved and she may have life. I cannot say 'no'. And after I took the step of obedience, my heart was filled with compassion for her. He did it. I just prayed for the strength to obey. I don't see her as the 'other' woman. I see her as a sinner needing a savior. I see her as a hurting person needing Jesus.

This is the kind of counsel I receive from the Word and from the Lord. To many, if I was to counsel comeone this way, it would seem like I was harsh or judging them or unrealistic. I am just obeying the Lord.

In His love, Chanin


_________________
Chanin

 2005/9/27 8:50Profile









 Re: What Kind of Counsel?

Hi Chanin,

I'm going to respond to some points on the previous page first, then yours.

Quote:
[b]Does it rehash unresolved issues in our own lives that we have stuffed and kept in darkness rather than bringing it to his light where healing can begin[/b].

What HopeinChrist draws to our attention here, is a Biblical principle - something like taking the log out of one's own eye so to see clearly to help the other person with the speck in theirs - or Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

I've deliberately left out the next verse (about the goodness of God leading to repentance) because that is a separate step. What the above verses from Romans 2 say to me, is, those who are unhealed, do not want others who are unhealed, to heal. They 'minister' their own condition to others in a similar condition, trying to persuade those others not to change their grid of reference... WHY? Because if [i]one[/i] person heals, it immediately alters the group dynamic and puts further pressure on their (the church leader's) own unhealed state.

It's not an accident that some church leaders are unkeen for some church members to heal. While they have the 'power' - control - over a church member's options, they are demonstrating a classic stance, which mimics completely the dynamics in abusive situations. Therefore, the last thing an unhealed member needs, is to come under the influence of such a leader - a church leader who is [u]unwilling to lead the way to healing, by going first[/u].

The basic principle at work here is the same for preachers - they [i]must[/i] be [u]in the good of their own message[/u] themselves, before they can lead others into it.

The log (Matt 7:3 NASB) analogy is not brilliant either, because Jesus is obviously referring to sin (as is Paul in Romans). And that is not the issue for the person who requires to heal. I'm not saying that person has [u]no[/u] sin.... they may do.... it may be contributing to their malaise... but the Lord Himself will raise that to the top of the priority list in His own good time, and the person will then deal with it next.

Meantime, if healing is the need, then those who are themselves unhealed are busy managing the load of [i]their own log[/i], and everything they see is distorted by this their own burden.

We have the Lord's word on this one. Thus, I believe we should dispense with the false notion that one who is unhealed is somehow now specially equipped to take on the nursing of others. I've heard this many many times and would make this comment - that those who have learned to live with their 'pain' are not likely to be able to minister healing to those whose 'pain' is so strong it cannot be lived with. At best, they will minister the solution for pain which they themselves employ - pain management.

Before those of you who are not ready to deal with your pain, come back at me, I do realise God's timing is perfect, it's unique to the individual and cannot be rushed. But, when you [i]are[/i] ready, what you need, as Chanin said, is a safe space where you are free to meet with God and exchange your pain for His Health. This is not a [i]one session[/i] event. If it had been that easy to separate you from your pain, you would have done it looong ago. Very few 'ministers' who are [i]not ready or willing[/i] to deal with their own pain, can facilitate this transaction. You are on your own with God. Amen.

I have more to say in future posts depending on responses here.

 2005/9/27 12:31
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Lahry

Quote:
We were talking about ministry, and he related the following about a recent trip to Los Angeles, his home town. He said they were on Hollywood Blvd. They had cast some demons out of some folks so a police car came rushing up too them. The policeman inquired about a report that they had recieved that somebody was casting out devils. Troy said, "that would be us, officer". The policeman asked, "do you have a license to do that". Troy said "sure, you want to see it"? The policeman quickly replied no. Just as he was about to get in his squad car and leave, he turned around and said, "don't you be casting demons out of anyone who doesn't want you to do that".



Thanks Lahry, that more than made my day. Strange, that I have twice attempted to address the whole of "being sick of myself", yesterday wrote it all out and then canned it. This morning again thought it had adequate expression and thought I had posted it.... It never showed up...
Maybe, just maybe it has something to do with brevity...

I know what you mean, what a blessed state to come to.

Quote:
I know Chanin's husband and family have already gotten infected with the grace that God gives to those who will lay it on the line for another. It is so awesome.



James is begining to ring in the head lately, just that one verse...


_________________
Mike Balog

 2005/9/27 16:26Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Lahry

Chanin said:

Quote:
Just because someone has not been through a person's exact situation, or been broken to the extreme that they have does not mean that they won't be able to counsel them. They just need to to know the truth of the word and know Jesus intimately. Of course it helps, no doubt.


I agree, having a similar experience is not necessary, nor does it guarantee an ability to empathize.

What is helpful is the ability to empathize with feelings and emotions that result from troubling experiences - such as loss, fear, loneliness, shame, and rejection.

However, I would think that if one has never known , for example, loss of any kind, I'm not sure how well that person could be able to identify with someone experiencing loss.

I agree with you that knowing Christ is important, and that would imply a certain level of empathy with his own life on earth - his loss, his sufferings etc.
Paul was eager to identify with Jesus' sufferings. Would that not include such experiences as loneliness, loss, rejection, as well as physical feelings of hunger, fatigue, etc? Surely that would have made Paul a very empathetic person.


_________________
Diane

 2005/9/27 19:59Profile









 Re: What Kind of Counsel?


roadsign said

Quote:
I think this is the issue. We cannot minister to the infirmities (vulnerability) of others until we have been sufficiently broken. I've seen this over and over again. Those who have been through the pain of the healing process, can relate, and are not so prone to judge and give unrealistic solutions.

I would like to rephrase 'until we have been sufficiently broken', please, because it gives the idea that the Lord Himself is hurting us more that we already are, and I don't think that's what you mean, Diane. I think you mean that the person who needs healing, who has been concealing undisclosed, ill-defined ... um ... past trauma?... old pain? ... undiagnosed illness ... untold sinful secrets... has survived this long by denying that underlying truth (or truths) and now, the cover-up scenario has to be yielded to the Lord - the facade has to be given up. This is what Hope meant by bringing things from the darkness to the light.

For the person going through the exposure of the comparative lie they have been promoting to the outside world (which they themselves may have believed for a long time 'I can manage' (sound familiar, anyone?)) the relinquishing of this world-facing exterior, is an emotionally painful process at the least, fraught with questions about inner security when other 'people find out'.

Quote:
However, I would think that if one has never known , for example, loss of any kind, I'm not sure how well that person could be able to identify with someone experiencing loss.

This is true. I have a friend who's just spent 10 years to qualify in many skills as a traumatologist. Each student has to go through quite few sessions of counselling for themselves, so they don't bring their own issues to the client (As referred to in my last post, unhealed people instinctively do this.) One fellow student apparently had had such a healthy life (now a 23 year old) there there was NOTHING for her to discuss. My friend commented that of course, she would eventually have unpleasant life experience to reflect upon but, if he was looking for a therapist, it would not be her - someone who had [i]absolutely no idea[/i] what he was talking about!

Quote:
Paul was eager to identify with Jesus' sufferings. Would that not include such experiences as loneliness, loss, rejection, as well as physical feelings of hunger, fatigue, etc? [b]Surely that would have made Paul a very empathetic person[/b].

Paul would still have had to deal with his own issues under those circumstances. Isn't that why we find him singing hymns at midnight in jail, and saying 'Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, [therewith] to be content.' (Phil 4:11) and 'I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.' (Phil 4:13)

It is not to the empathy that we come. It is to the compassion by which Christ healed and heals. It is to the Father's heart, who would see His children whole and functioning with all the inner health (wholeness) and spiritual wealth which belongs to them in Christ.

 2005/9/28 8:36









 Re: What Kind of Counsel?

Someone wrote to me with this comment. I have permission to post it here.

Quote:
It's not an accident that some church leaders are unkeen for some church members to heal. While they have the 'power' - control - over a church member's options, they are demonstrating a classic stance, which mimics completely the dynamics in abusive situations.

"Just reread these insightful words and realized something,,,

This message of just "repent and get over your pain" is probably an expression picked up by loyal laypeople from pastors who have an agenda that does not include time and care for hurting people.

It's ironic...people are converted and pressed into service before being properly cared for and healed. The presumed reason? For ministry of course...we need to reach all the hurting people out there! And so the bait and switch never ends...

The whole idea of a pastor operating as the spiritual support of people lives is misguided...real communities are self-sustaining.

The real issue I'm afraid, is that these pastors are caught in a trap...they want to care for people but they have to care for the apparatus instead. When you have an organization to run, you only want healthy horses to pull the wagon. Caring for hurting people is a distraction to church growth and an emotional drain.

The solution then, is to create a "shape up or ship out" gospel where pain is mocked and needs are scoffed at.....

Today, there is doctrine and tithing. People do not intercede at all but instead proclaim truisms to each another from a safe distance. The overarching message is that spiritually mature saints should have no needs at all.

The only way to even begin to address this situation is to reduce the pastors spiritual authority, redistribute it around the community. Then he will not be the only bandwidth for transmitting spiritual ministry to the body... an impossible situation that causes the pastor to actually begin [i]resenting[/i] his sheep.

It's simple emotional economics... The pastors have taken control of the spiritual supply chain and are finding out they can't meet the demand. So they condemn the demand side to shift responsibility away from the supply side. A real answer would be to move from a socialized (church government based) ministry, to a supply side (community based) ministry model, where the healthy individuals in the community can care for the hurting individuals.

What do you think? "

I think that sounds like a house-church working properly in a limited geographic area.

And, until the western church gets back to more of a third world simplicity and smallness, hurting people will continue to find themselves abandoning the unwelcome formality they face, which reminds them they feel leprous.

 2005/9/28 15:38
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: use of word "broken"

Quote:
I would like to rephrase 'until we have been sufficiently broken', please, because it gives the idea that the Lord Himself is hurting us more that we already are, and I don't think that's what you mean, Diane. I think you mean that the person who needs healing, who has been concealing undisclosed, ill-defined ... um ... past trauma?... old pain? ... undiagnosed illness ... untold sinful secrets... has survived this long by denying that underlying truth (or truths) and now, the cover-up scenario has to be yielded to the Lord - the facade has to be given up. This is what Hope meant by bringing things from the darkness to the light.


Thank you, Dorcas for clarifying my use of words, and defining the real intent of my word choice, "broken".

It is not a case of being damaged futher, but of being set free from well-fortified defences.


We do need to be careful with our words, because others can interpret something very different than we intended. So, again, thank you for your keen discerning eyes.

I am concerned for that person you spoke of who has never experienced anything bad in his entire life. I wonder how he will cope when something bad happens. Can education alone prepare him for that?

Thanks for sharing about pastors who try to keep the system intact at the expense of the needs of the individual. Unfortunately our pastors must live with a constant dilema - to support the system, or to seek spiritual maturity for the individual. The two often don't go together.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2005/9/28 22:32Profile









 Re:

Diane, dorcas, Chanin, etc.

I just read dullrainbow's post on Greg's Earthquake thread ... and that feeling of impending doom that a lot of us have been feeling in some way or another for some time now has just made me even the more grateful for you ladies and for this thread, and others like it.

Can't exactly put into words why, as much as 'feel' how wonderful it is to be able to sit back and see 'real life' interactions between woman who "care" about each other and 'others'.

God Bless you and Protect ya's, until we see Him.

A cyber-hug.
Annie

 2005/9/28 22:40
LetUsPray
Member



Joined: 2004/10/12
Posts: 173


 Re: What Kind of Counsel?

I have been reading through this thread several times. I can’t but help feeling that something is missing. If I have misunderstood the contributors, please forgive me. I want to highlight what I want to say with a personal testimony, not to draw attention to myself, but because walking out our faith in Christ is obeying His Word and the Christian Life experience. In an earlier threat I recounted a situation where the church had failed a hurting lady completely.

I hinted at the possibility that “something” may be missed because of a number of reasons. Most cases I have encountered have already been mentioned: Church programs and the church organization overshadow every need of broken people. My experience is that almost every church sends their hurting people to “Christian,” or even secular “experts.” Many of the people I met as a result of the way God worked in my life, had been for years involved in a form of dependency through regular weekly visits with counselors and never finding freedom.

Many denominations don’t recognize or systematically ignore the possibility of demonic oppression. Some charismatic denominations or groups declare that it is impossible for a born-again spirit-filled tongue-talking Christian to be oppressed – might I add, even inhabited – by evil spirits. This poses an enormous problem for the Christian who struggles with bondages that don’t seem to go away by fasting, praying, going forward after altar calls, being prayed over, etc.

I was saved in a charismatic church. A few months later, after praying with a pastor received the gift of tongues. Strangely enough some of the difficulties I struggled with prior to my conversion didn’t go away. Sure, I was on cloud nine for several weeks, but I came crashing down when my rage manifested itself again and I experienced very strange things, even physical attacks by unseen beings. I was scared as I had never been before. To make a long story short, through time I was delivered of three demons. The last one was the most difficult, because its root was hidden in something that I had no recollection of. It came to the surface when I attended a compulsory counseling session as part of a course. During that session something started actually to speak through me and at one point I saw myself when I was sexually molested as a small child.

Praise the Lord that I can hold a crying baby – I have 5 grand-children – or be with a little animal that cries during the night and not hit or kick it. I beat my oldest daughter for the first time when she was only 2 weeks old.

The story is much longer, but through it all God was faithful and restored and healed and renewed. We serve an awesome God. The problem I want to identify is that if I would have stayed in the charismatic church, I would have never found freedom. They simply declared that it was not possible for the Holy Spirit and a demon to be in the same body. Most other churches don’t even want to talk about this, so the person in bondage will struggle and be hopelessly defeated in their Christian walk and never experience the abundant life in Christ. My experience is that demons can be in a born-again Christian and they only come out one way: by command in the name of Jesus Christ. I also believe that it is very important that someone who is involved with hurting people has experienced God’s comfort for their own pain, because God’s Word sets the precedence:

2 Corinthians 1
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

It is my prayer that ALL who confess the Lord Jesus Christ as the Lord of their life will experience the abundant life He promises us.


_________________
Hans Prang

 2005/9/29 22:56Profile









 Re: What Kind of Counsel?

Quote:
Many denominations don’t recognize or systematically ignore the possibility of demonic oppression. Some charismatic denominations or groups declare that it is impossible for a born-again spirit-filled tongue-talking Christian to be oppressed – might I add, even inhabited – by evil spirits. [b]This poses an enormous problem for the Christian who struggles with bondages that don’t seem to go away by fasting, praying, going forward after altar calls, being prayed over[/b], etc.

In a different thread, a brother expressed concern at [i]relying on[/i] revelation (from God) which comes from outside scripture... which I countered, quoting the places in John's gospel where it is unmistakable that Jesus [i]did[/i] - He relied on what His Father showed Him to say or do...(John 5:19, 30)... This is how (roughly-speaking) certain gifts of the Spirit work in practice, and we need to trust the words which God is always speaking, as one and another of us church members hear from Him.

This is Counsel. This is the Counsellor in action.

I used to sit under ministry which suggested I could not be 'born again' if I had a demon, yet, that I had a demon was what God showed me. But so, the moment I disclosed this to another sister, her reaction was to say 'Oh no no no no no. That can't be true!' In other words, [i]disputing[/i] what God had shown me. This led to all sorts of difficulty for me. Moreover, it points to a need for Christians to trust each other's judgement in such matters.

This is merely another facet of what Hans describes in his post, except, the problem is even deeper if a minister is unapproachable by a flock member... and inclined to use his status to bolster his spiritual authority (instead of the other way round), thus adding a layer of protection to himself, from having to admit he doesn't know how to help the needy person.

Or, flock members are forbidden to minister to each other using their gifts. No wonder the Church is weak and in need.



 2005/10/2 23:54





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