SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Who is JESUS ?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 Next Page )
PosterThread
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

Here is the site where I got this article from:

The Oneness of God
by David Bernard

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Top.htm

The New Birth
by David Bernard

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/New-Top.htm

You are free to comment whatever you want.


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/28 12:06Profile
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

If there is a Co Equality among the "persons" in the Godhead then why is the Son seen as inferior to the Father. The Son doesn't know the day of his return only the Father. That would mean he doesn't know everything in which being God he should know. The Son died but the Father can't die. What happened to the Co-Equality there since the Son is now inferior or below the Father but that is impossible if there is Co Equality in the Godhead, meaning all three persons who are all equally God are equal but the Son is not equal to the Father in his humanity. Jesus has two natures. A human side and a divine side. The human side is what we call the Son which had limitations, he had to pray to the Father. The divine side is what we call the Father within. God was in him

So how can The Son have Co equality with the other "Persons" of the Godhead when he is limited and humiliated in the flesh?


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/28 12:15Profile









 Re:

Hi Everett. I think you answered your own question on the previous page and within this last post.
He emptied Himself and became as one of us and while in the flesh Only - He did not have the "day nor the hour" to share with the disciples, while mortal.
You spoke how he limited Himself in your explanation of the God/man.
He said, "Father Glorify me with the Glory I had with You from the beginning", when looking at His coming death/Crucifixion.

He is not "limited and humiliated in the flesh" if you read Rev. 19:11 - on.

The flesh of the Son died, but rose from the dead in a glorified body. And you're right, "God didn't die."

The Logos only became subservient, while in the flesh of man. He is Co-Equal with the Father again now as He was before the Incarnation.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

He shares the Same Glory and Throne ~

Eze 1:26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
Eze 1:27 And I saw as the color of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.
Eze 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spoke.

Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

 2007/10/28 13:34









 Re:

Hi Brother, I went straight to chpt 12 of your book, because I know the Oneness doctrine - and his chart about our beliefs in the Tri-Unity of God is off.
Numbers 8 & 9 are covered in this thread.

Many answers are in the post on page 5 about the Tri-Unity and why we don't believe the Oneness doctrine.

Too many Scriptures left out of the book you offered. And renaming our belief as "Tritheism" is a slur to what we believe.

Going through the pages I see the same verses left out and the same lame history.

If we go with Scripture alone - the problem of understanding the Triune Godhead is not problematic.

Just those on page 5 on this thread alone if viewed without any preformed bias, speak for themselves.

I said, I did understand your problem with the titles, Trinity and "persons", but the Scriptures bare out the Three in ONE GOD.

I'm thrilled that you understand that Christ or The Logos is GOD but your beliefs are forcing you not to see a major bulk of Scripture.

Man's words do not prove anything to anyone - only Scripture.
We could go through that book chpt. by chpt. but unless we do it Scripture by Scripture and your heart is open to possibly seeing the Godhead as Three equals in One God, then it would be unfair to my time to try.

If you are concreted into your belief - than how far can we go with our conversation without constant disagreeing?

I'm at the point in my life where I don't read much of anything but The Word, because only it is 100% Divinely Inspired and is Living.
I've read enough of man and have seen enough of how they've split the Church.
If we all could just learn Hermeneutics properly and stay with the Bible Only as our basis for discussions, I think in the long run - we'd all benefit from such discussions. At least it would cause us to dig deeper into The Word, which I hear from Polls taken, is only truly studied by an extremely low number of professing Christians. How sad.

His Love to you.

 2007/10/28 14:06
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

Thank You for your reply. I will still do more studying in spite of my roots in the Apostolic Doctrine which is the only truth we should hold to but I am completely confident of the validity in what I provided from that article.


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/28 22:04Profile
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

You know, I don't know what it will take for us to come into agreement on these things because it seems like you are so confident on your side and I am the same on my side.

What I do know is that there is one Faith, one Lord and one Baptism and we shouldn't be getting two totally different doctrines taught to us if we all are obeying the Apostolic Doctrine and the Doctrine of Christ. We can still be siblings in the body of Christ but this doctrinal difference really causes us to damage that one mind, one heart state of being that the early church had.

The good thing is that we are always willing to learn more and to embrace the truth. If the truth be this than I'll embrace it. It it be that then I'll embrace that. I am going to examine both sides of the argument more and not just think that I have a more convincing side. Please show me why you so confidently believe that God is three persons when the bible never mentions those words or that doctrine, even when a type of Jesus Christ and/or his church can be found in every book of the bible. He is the Word of God so it shouldn't be a coincidence to us but rather its revelatory in nature. Actually I'll just look at the previous posts since these things have already been discussed. Thank you for your fellowship.


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/28 22:17Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Actually I'll just look at the previous posts since these things have already been discussed. Thank you for your fellowship.



Thank you on both accounts brother. I hope you will understand that I saw it from The Bible and asking the Holy Spirit to fulfill John 16:13 and not from man's teaching. I really believe that we're to be like little children when asking for Truth and fully dependent and leaning and trusting that verse about The Holy Spirit.
Like little kids. Wide open - big eyed and dependent.

Still equates to One God regardless and the Scriptures don't 'take' from That Fact - but just expounds on how HE works.


Bless you also. You're a kind soul.
I pray for you HIS Best - Always.

 2007/10/29 0:17









 Re: Jesus is Jehovah GOD

[color=CC3300][b]Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness [John the baptist], Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Joh 5:18 - Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh_10:33 - The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.


Joh_14:9 - Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?


Joh_14:23 - Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Phil_2:6 - Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God


Rev 1:17 - .... Fear not; I am the first and the last

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

[Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. ]


Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev 1:17,18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 21:3-7 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. [/b][/color]

 2007/10/30 13:49









 Re: Jesus = I AM.

[color=993300][b]If Jesus is not God, then explain...

Why Thomas calls Jesus God in John 20:28? (Note, Thomas addresses Jesus specifically.)

Why does God call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8?

Why does John the apostle state that Jesus was the Word which was God that became flesh (John 1:1,14)?

Why is the phrase "Call upon the name of the LORD" (Hebrew, YHWH, i.e., Psalm 116:4) used only of God on the OT, and translated into the Greek in the LXX as "Call upon the name of the LORD (greek, KURIOS)," applied to Jesus in the NT (1 Cor. 1:2) if Jesus is not God in flesh?

Why does the apostle John say that Jesus was , "...calling God His own Father, making Himself equal to God," (John 5:18)?

What did Jesus say that caused the Pharisees to claim that Jesus was making Himself out to be God?

How was it possible for Jesus to know all things (John 21:17)?

How can Jesus know all men (John 16:30)?

How can Jesus be everywhere (Matt. 28:20)?

How can Jesus, the Christ, dwell in you (Col. 1:27)?

How can Jesus be the exact representation of the Nature of God (Heb. 1:3)?

How can Jesus be eternal (Micah 5:1-2)?

How can Jesus be the one who gives eternal life (John 10:27-28)?

How can He be our only Lord and Master (Jude 4)?

How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) if there is only one God in existence (Isaiah 44:6-8; 45:5)?

How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) and "God" also be called the Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21?

How was Jesus able to raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21)?

How can Jesus create all things (Col. 1:16-17), yet it is God who created all things by Himself (Isaiah 44:24)?

How can Jesus search the hearts and minds of the people (Rev. 2:23)?

Why was Jesus worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6) when He says to worship God only (Matt. 4:10)? (same Greek word for worship is used in each place.)

In the OT God was seen (Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-9; Acts 7:2), yet no man can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18). It was not the Father that was seen in the OT (John 6:46). Who, then were they seeing? See John 8:58.
Then why did Jesus claim the divine name, "I AM", for Himself in John 8:58? see Exodus 3:14.

Then why did Jesus say you must honor him even as you honor the Father (John 5:23)?

Then why is it that both the Father and the Son give life (John 5:21)?

Then why did Jesus bear witness of Himself (John 8:18; 14:6)? [/b][/color]



[url=http://www.carm.org/doctrine/Jesus_to_john.htm][color=CC3300][b]John KNEW Him.[/b][/color][/url]



[url=http://www.carm.org/doctrine/100truths.htm][color=CC3300][b]1Ti 3:16 ~ "God was manifest in the flesh"[/url][/b][/color]


 2007/10/30 14:58









 Re:

Quote:

Everett wrote:
If there is a Co Equality among the "persons" in the Godhead then why is the Son seen as inferior to the Father. The Son doesn't know the day of his return only the Father. That would mean he doesn't know everything in which being God he should know. The Son died but the Father can't die. What happened to the Co-Equality there since the Son is now inferior or below the Father but that is impossible if there is Co Equality in the Godhead, meaning all three persons who are all equally God are equal but the Son is not equal to the Father in his humanity. Jesus has two natures. A human side and a divine side. The human side is what we call the Son which had limitations, he had to pray to the Father. The divine side is what we call the Father within. God was in him

So how can The Son have Co equality with the other "Persons" of the Godhead when he is limited and humiliated in the flesh?

HI again Everett

[i][b]Subordination isn't the same as inferiority![/b][/i] Otherwise we would be some kind of inferior being to our parents, our teacher or our boss in work, or to the King, Queen or President of wherever we happen to live.

Similarly Jesus' willing subordination to the Father in no way means He is inferior.

Re His not knowing "the day nor the hour", Zola Levitt had a wonderful little booklet about this. It spoke from the perspective of Jewish marriage customs of the time.

Maybe a young man saw a girl he would like to marry. He would go home and ask his father to arrange things. There would be consultation between the two families, and if all went to plan, the betrothal would take place.

Then the bridegroom would return to his father's house and prepare a special bridal chamber, (or perhaps even a separate house on his father's estate).

This preparation was usually expected to take about a year, then the young man would go to fetch his bride.

But he wouldn't be able to go until his father had inspected the prepared place, and approved of it. (In case the young man ,eager to have his wife, had failed to do things properly).

So the bride and her family would know roughly when to expect the bridegroom, and would no doubt post lookouts when the time came near, but they wouldn't know exactly.

And if the bridegroom was asked when he was going to get his wife, he might well say, with a wry smile (he loves her so much it's difficult to contain his eagerness) "Only Father knows!"

I think that's beautiful, don't you?

In Him

Jeannette

 2007/10/30 15:36





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy