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IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Old Tesatment vs New Testament

dear brethren
there is something i would like to know that has been bugging me for some time now. the Lord has led me to ask what is it that we are exempt from in this new Testament?

matthew 5 17-20 says:



[b]17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. [/b]

if Christ didn't come to do away with the Law, and says we should obey it all, what then did He abolish which was of the Old Testament? i know it's not judgement like it was in the O.T. because the final judgement will be beyond anything in the O.T.
i'm guilty of saying "oh that was the Old Testament, that doesn't apply now" without fully understanding exactly what we're exempt from now.

how much are we excusing ourselves of by sweeping it under the O.T. rug? How much are we really exempt from as opposed to how much we are exempting ourselves from? i humbly ask for scriptures and prayerful consideration before posting.

p.s. i'm not a kjv fan coz i find it hard to read (olde englishe) i use an niv and good news which i find easier, but i'm learning to read it. since most people quote it in their posts i've done so here.

many thanks


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Farai Bamu

 2005/9/10 19:29Profile
InTheLight
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 Re: Old Tesatment vs New Testament

The only thing we are now exempt from is attempting to fulfill the law in our human strength.

The law in itself is only a shadow, it doesn't satisfy God or sanctify men outside of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Jesus has provided the grace to every child of God to now...

...love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [b]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.[/b] (Matthew 22:37-40)

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2005/9/10 20:17Profile
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 Re:

bro Ron
thanks for your response. i was in error for saying that we are exempt from this and that which wasn't fulfilment of the by our own strength. why then we write so many things off as being old testament when fulfilment of the law is the only exemption. complacency?


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Farai Bamu

 2005/9/10 21:35Profile
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 Re: Old vs new Covenant

Quote:
why then we write so many things off as being old testament when fulfilment of the law is the only exemption. complacency?



Even if we did eradicate the Old Covenant laws, Jesus words say it all – every commandment is incorporated into his teachings somehow. Even the ritual laws – every one of them is a picture of a spiritual law that is relevant today.

It seems that most professing Christians still dwell in the Old Covenant era. As long as they are still ruled by their old natures, they are not living in Spirit of the New Covenant with transformed minds. They still wnat to be the masters of their own lives. So they make themselves an authority over Scripture, making it submit to their sinful desires (to rule their own lives). They are still like the rebellious, unbelieving Israelites. They may obsess on the laws they like (esp finger-pointing laws and laws that control religion) and are blind to a host of others (laws about mercy and love). Or, those unregenerate “Christians” who do abolish the entire Old Testament are still in spiritual darkness, and thus will fail to see the Law through the words of Christ. (Antinomianism)


Ironman, Does that make any sense? Am I tracking with you?

I must admit that I am still trying to grasp even my own words here. I have lived in an Old Covenant mindset for so many years, (without realizing it) that I would not be surprised if there are many areas of my life where I am still bound with legalistic thinking. (Galatians)

Amen to this:
Quote:
The only thing we are now exempt from is attempting to fulfill the law in our human strength.



Diane


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Diane

 2005/9/12 8:37Profile
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 Re:

hey sis Diane
by saying some Chritians are still living in the O.T. era, do you mean that they lack the mercy and patience which comes from the Holy Spirit? or perhaps fail altogether to submit to the Holy Spirit?


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Farai Bamu

 2005/9/12 18:29Profile
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 Re: old, new covenant

Quote:
by saying some Chritians are still living in the O.T. era, do you mean that they lack the mercy and patience which comes from the Holy Spirit? or perhaps fail altogether to submit to the Holy Spirit?


I'm not sure. Can one have a foot in each covenant? It would seem that if one is still living according to Old Covenant principles, they haven't really been born from above, (born again)

I use the word "Christian" loosely - referring to all who call themselves by that name. I'd say by far most Christians are not even saved.

Evidence of living in the Old Covenant:
They center their worship on form and place (building, religious activity, and such) rather than life centerd on Spirit.
- depend on works of the flesh for salvation
- focus on outer behavior
- not led by the Spirit, living by the Spirit
- do not reflect the heart of Christ
- more focused on law and justice than mercy and forgiveness,
Maybe they lack patience and mercy because they have not experinced God's patience and mercy towards them.

It's hard to distinguish, as one can easily be fooled by good outer cover. Only in the final judgment will it be obvous who are wheat and who are tares.
Diane


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Diane

 2005/9/12 19:07Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I'm not sure. Can one have a foot in each covenant? It would seem that if one is still living according to Old Covenant principles, they haven't really been born from above, (born again)



sis Diane
we've concluded that being under grace means that we can fulfil o.t. standards/statutes by help of the Holy Spirit so we need to be aware of the statutes in question. however from some of the evidences of O.T.-type living, one word comes ot mind, hypocrite. just like the pharisees who did it all by the book but in the wrong spirit.


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Farai Bamu

 2005/9/12 19:46Profile
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 not a hit topic

Quote:
one word comes to mind, hypocrite. just like the Pharisees who did it all by the book but in the wrong spirit.



Those who try hard to be good Christians in their own strength have no other recourse but to follow the letter of the law. I’d say that the vast majority of church goers are all trying, but as you say, in the wrong spirit, without the Holy Spirit.

Have you thought about how useless this discussion topic is - in general. Explaining the New Covenant Law (of the Spirit) is like trying to explain color to a blind man. Spiritual truths cannot be discerned with the natural mind. So you could go on forever discussing antinomianism, legalism, the laws, hypocrisy, etc and you are just beating yourself on the head.

The New Covenant is the best news in the entire Bible. But it sure isn’t a favourite discussion topic in any Christian circle. Sorry, but that seems to be a reality.
Diane


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Diane

 2005/9/13 15:11Profile
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 Re: not a hit topic

sis diane

Quote:
Have you thought about how useless this discussion topic is - in general. Explaining the New Covenant Law (of the Spirit) is like trying to explain color to a blind man. Spiritual truths cannot be discerned with the natural mind. So you could go on forever discussing antinomianism, legalism, the laws, hypocrisy, etc and you are just beating yourself on the head.



you know i understand why the Lord has shut me up now. the revelations He gives us to share aren't always received in the right spirit. we write off to much stuff as being false without letting God try it for us. i felt moved by Him to ask that question so i could get an answer and i did. thanks to you all, or both ;-)


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Farai Bamu

 2005/9/14 13:00Profile
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 Re: Old Tesatment vs New Testament


Brother Ironman you wrote;

"you know i understand why the Lord has shut me up now"

Praise God for that revelation to you ... i know it's not an easy understanding to come to, for i've had to go thru the same thing ... We get so used to spouting when He has us in spout mode, that it's hard to shut up/down when He ceases out lips ...

Anyhow i just thought i'd throw in my 2 cents about the Old and New Testament ... First off it's not vs when it comes to the OT and the NT, for the NT (via the Gospels of Jesus) is the fulfilment of the NT, they are complimentary for we'd never understand the NT without the OT, and vice-versa ... i'm convinced that the reason God answered my prayer to telling His story and making it plain via THE CALLED, is the reason why He's finally - at this day and time- bringing it to fruition, so that folk can readily understand the connection ...

For me the OT represents no threat to my NT salvation in Christ as i fully know and understand that Christ completely fulfiled that Law which once condemned me, but now that i'm covered in His blood there is therefore no condemnation in Him ... So why am i so in love with the OT? ... i'll tell you why ... Because it's the OT that my foundation of "faith" has been built on ... It's the dealings of God with His OT chosen folk that has had such a great and formative impact on my believing, such as Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Elijah, Jonah, David, Solomon, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel and the like ... The OT gives us all some pretty intricate histories of these saints ups and downs and more importantly God's in and outworkings thru their ups and downs ... The OT lives of those saints let me know that even in my imperfections, mess ups, hang ups and bang ups God can still concider me a man after His own heart, and still make all things work together for His good thru me ... Just think, He did that with OT folk, now think of what He could do thru us in Christ who are now indwealt by the Holy Ghost, if we'd but only surrender ...

That's why the book of Hebrews is my favorite NT book ... If we read it and take it for what it says, it totally explains the symbiotic relationship between the two, and the greater fulfilment of the NT for the believer over the OT ...

But then it hits we NT believers at Heb. 11 with what we all can and must learn from our OT counterparts ... THE NEED FOR FAITH! ... FAITH! ... FAITH! ... For with us that "haven't seen" what they "did see" we need our FAITH! even moreso ... That's what i love about this scripture ...

Heb.12
[1] Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
[2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Brother Ironman you're in the wilderness, and i'm on the road just about to cross over the bridge (the final galley for THE CALLED was approved yesterday and went into production today) ... So what do we both have in common right about thru here? ... We're both in a one on one experience with God where He's talking to us, and we should be talking back to Him ...

To tell you the truth, i'm being far more effective in this time of His shuting my mouth because some key folk in my assignment are now seeking me out to find out why i'm now so quiet ... Now isin't that interesting ...

REST in the "shut down lesson" for now brother Ironman, for believe me He will unzip our lips anew ... to a higher level ...when He's ready! ... Amen ... :beard:

PS - See you in Babylon! ... ;-)

 2005/9/16 16:22Profile





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