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 Re:

Palaber. I like that word, even though I'll have to go now and look it up in Websters. HA !


I told someone here about having all scientists for siblings, and how the Lord rebuked me severely about using my "head" so to speak, to speak for "HIM". Ooooo, bad no-no, He said, so He allowed me to develop a syndrome (M.E.) that made it hard to do so. (Ah-ha, I hear some say) ... but when you come from a family of 'egg-heads' (Mensa men) and then you get saved, if you don't learn to "walk in the spirit" and not in the flesh (brain power), you're gonna hurt someone, pretty badly or just plain add "mixed cloth" in with the HOLY.


Anyhowz, when we were sent out to do Street witnessing as an Assignment, we were told, it was perfectly legit, to tell a Prostitute, that once she is saved, she, in God's eyes, would then be a virgin .............. As far as the East is from the West ........ Though your sins be as scarlet, to white as snow, old man dead, etc. etc..


I don't think I could tell anyone any different, no matter what.


Palaber. Now I've got to go pull out Websters.

thanks !
LOVE in Christ.


 2005/9/8 22:50









 Re:

I found it. It's a mix between palaver and pabulum.

Yuck :-P . Doesn't sound too nutritious to me.

 2005/9/8 22:58









 Re: Divorce and Remarriage - the integrity of virginity can be restored...?

Apologies in advance, for this very long post, which doesn't offer many answers, but lays out some of the problems which make this topic so hard to generalise about.

philologos said

Quote:
If Neilgin's thesis were correct this would produce extraordinary complications. If regeneration creates physical virginity what does it do to the marriage that was consumated? does it have to be re-consumated and what does it do to the children who have been fathered/mothered?

I believe it does change 'the marriage that was consumated' but not retrospectively .... [i][b]now[/b][/i] as it goes forward in God.... regeneration cannot have [u]no[/u] effect.

If the children are holy because of the believer, there are implications towards holiness for the unbelieving spouse, if they stay, because there is now some spiritual authority over sin within the relationship.

This is completely in keeping with the truth that there are spiritual implications for those who fornicate or commit adultery, or commit homosexuality, all of which are relevant to 'but ye are washed, ye are sanctified' in 1 Cor 6:9 - 11. Do you see what I mean? Regeneration changes these 'relationships'....

As I have experienced it, how clean one feels has a huge amount to do with virginity or the lack of it. There should be a natural cleanness which proceeds with the virgin into the marriage relationship, which (I believe) promotes their becoming one flesh, in such a way that this can be a [i]completing[/i] of each other - CS Lewis suggests, a becoming 'fully human'.

It is definitely possible to be technically married but not become 'one flesh' with a sense of belonging to the other - nurturing responsible mutual love. This was my experience, without doubt exascerbated by what I had begun to discover before I left it - my history of abuse in childhood. It's always difficult to introduce this subject, but, it is so relevant, I think I need to share, so as to show the grace of God to a broken person, who was first molested as a baby.

I didn't begin to put together what I actually know about myself, until after the pressure of the most obvious violations (in childhood) had been dealt with. After that, just under the surface, memories of a much more malicious influence in my life, emerged. What a big relief to have that pointer to meaningful explanations! In this discussion, the relevance is that my virginity had been eroded by too many violations to count, and later with consent I gave up what was left-of-it-in-principle far too easily, to a smooth-talking adulterer (This is the easy-to-understand version of the story.) The spiritual implication(s) of the Idol Fornication, (and those of Sodom), ministered to a child, have taken years and years to unravel.

Effectively preventing healing from my childhood, fornication (just once) was a severe blow to my by then, fragile mental health. Literally, only since I came to SI, has true repentance for that single event been able to assume long-awaited priority - praise the Lord. It should be noted that in the interim, I was married for 15 years (technically) and have two children.

Only latterly (and I mean, in the last 10 years) through Bible study, much prayer, (much prayer, much more prayer, and much more prayer), did I begin to have some clarity about God's view of all these things, and begin to be able to put them in some kind of order, which has enabled me to heal from my childhood, and, from being in the cultish setting I have mentioned in other threads. (I should say I also read text books on recovery and had some excellent professional support (to make sure my children were being safely parented) but basically, this has been a journey taken with God, and alone.)

Eventually, I wrote a poem, (about five years ago) which at the time seemed to be retrospective, but, in view of the many very deep healings I've had in the weeks since I came here, to some extent, was prophetic - maybe 'hopeful' would be a better word, for back then - I dare not say 'bringing to an end' a journey which began 20 years ago, but definitely closing a chapter on the last 50 years of my life. The eternal Spirit has met me and kept me, and finally, delivered me from spiritual strongholds which resisted and flourished, while there was such an inviting combination of invisible injuries to offer foothold, handhold and stranglehold to them.

Most recently, I believe God healed me from the mourning I felt towards having had to be divorced - not for the loss of the (technical) marriage - but because I entered it with the belief there could only ever be one marriage in a lifetime. This is a separate subject (and I'm not going into details), but I was wrong to marry who and when I did and I found that a wrong 'marriage' (legal commitment to person one should not be in bed with) is a sin, (as much as fornication is a sin) which [i]cannot[/i] lead to the desired end of something God can bless. That was my only marriage....

To be fair to God, and give Him all the glory due, He has held me together (seriously miraculously) through the raising of my offspring, and at last, I am just about fit for motherhood, somewhat late in the day.

I share all this, because it's only now also, I am anywhere near fit to be [i]married[/i]... and, I see that the interleaving and overlapping of the work of the Spirit, with spirit and body, cannot really be hurried in the generality, just because a person is approaching marriagable age.

Maybe, I could have been 'healed' 'in church' but, if healing was preached, it certainly didn't meet my understanding in such a way as I could receive. (Actually, many survivors find church too much so I should not perpetuate the myth survivors could find God and healing there. Yes it is and was part of the tapestry, but it isn't 'the answer'. The [i]answer[/i] is to discover what crsschk posted about Psalm 139 - that there is [i]nothing[/i] which cannot be brought into the presence of God for His attention, nothing. He is pure Compassion, and waits to heal.)

Here is the poem.... It attempts to convey the multi-dimensional damage which God is invited to restructure. (And which I testify to you, He [i]can[/i] restructure.)


[u]Original Saviour[/u]

A girlhood, robbed of innocence,
Has little use for penitence.
She rather questions her existence
Seeking damage-limitation fixes,
Till a Saviour comes along,
With tune Original and song -

And gives her hope in great profusion,
Stimulating rank confusion -
Instantly creating turmoil,
Redefining every normal,
Lifelong referential grid,
Of every twist and warp to rid;
Each loss and defect to restore
Exactly how it was before –
Or should have been, in ideal world,
Before her life was downward hurled.

And now, with ever-upward trends
She grows, and stuntedness unbends,
Responding to the One whose Light
Obscures the sun with glory bright -
Trusting Him - with confidence -
Relinquishing all diffidence,
She branches out to fill her place,
Still looking up into His face.

Amazement dawns within her soul
The more she finds she’s been made whole,
[b]Crowned by the ingenuity
Which gives back her virginity[/b].

No earthling can her joy remove
While growing perfect in His love;
Her robe still keeping spotless white,
Her head held high, she loves the Light.

 2005/9/9 0:27









 Re:Virginity CAN be restored !!!!!!!!

Dorcas, I'm trying to type, but I can't barely see the monitor because my eyes are having a thunder storm right now.

All I saw was you under the cross, with His Blood flowing all over you. Oh Lord, it was beautiful, if you know what I mean.

And this song is going through my mind ...

There is a fountain filled with blood,
Drawn from Immanuel’s veins,
And sinners plunged beneath that flood
Lose all their guilty stains.

Refrain 1:
Lose all their guilty stains,
Lose all their guilty stains;
And sinners plunged beneath that flood
Lose all their guilty stains.
The dying thief rejoiced to see
That fountain in His day;
And there have I, though vile as he,
Washed all my sins away.

Refrain 2:
Washed all my sins away,
Washed all my sins away;
And there have I, though vile as he,
Washed all my sins away.
Dear dying Lamb, Thy precious blood
Shall never lose its pow’r,
Till all the ransomed church of God
Are safe, to sin no more.

Refrain 3:
Are safe, to sin no more,
Are safe, to sin no more;
Till all the ransomed church of God
Are safe, to sin no more.
E’er since by faith I saw the stream
Thy flowing wounds supply,
Redeeming love has been my theme,
And shall be till I die.

Refrain 4:
And shall be till I die,
And shall be till I die;
Redeeming love has been my theme,
And shall be till I die.
Then in a nobler, sweeter song,
I’ll sing Thy pow’r to save,
When this poor, lisping, stamm’ring tongue
Lies silent in the grave.


Thank you for sharing this Glory to God post, from your heart about HIS.

You're a beautiful lady indeed.

God Bless you intensely.

His Unending Love to you.

Annie

 2005/9/9 1:03









 Re: Divorce and Remarriage - Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

Annie, take care now. I'm glad you're blessed. I'm blessed you're blessed and with this wonderful theme. Amen! :-)

Quote:
There is a fountain filled with blood,
Drawn from Immanuel’s veins,
And sinners plunged beneath that flood
Lose all their guilty stains.

This is where the power lies, for cleansing from occult and spiritual uncleanness.



EDIT: [url=http://www.cyberhymnal.org/mid/c/l/e/cleansing_fountain.mid]http://www.cyberhymnal.org/mid/c/l/e/cleansing_fountain.mid[/url]

 2005/9/9 1:17









 Re:

He came to "Set the Captives Free".

And this is Truth.

And save a wretch like me.
Annie


Edit to add:

Isa 61:1-3 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that HE might be glorified.

 2005/9/9 1:41
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Ron Bailey

Quote:
what then does a being a "new man in Christ" mean?

If all sin and immorality are washed away in the Blood of Christ, and one is born again, is not an infant a virgin?


Hi Neil
Well, it doesn't mean I get a new body here and now. If it does I have been short-changed! :-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/9/9 3:36Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Ron Bailey part two

Quote:
Ronnie old man, number one, it's Neil, neilgin1 is a standardized thingy I use for cyber stuff. My last name is Giuntoli, blah blah blah, bing bing bing.

Yeh, I know who you are. (sshhhh. I've seen the pictures, remember?;-))

Quote:
there are no extraordinary complications in my thesis, because there is no thesis, only a promise from God and that promise is that I'm born again, made NEW in Christ, its THAT simple.

What parts of you are 'made new in Christ'? Do you still have that old nose?

I am not trying to direct your life; you know me better than that. I am examining your ideas and thinking through the implications. I have known of people who when they were 'born again' walked away from their spouses because they has been 'made new'. I have known of people who have taken new spouses because the old ones were not born again and God had made 'all things new'. The 'all things new' does not include body parts or relationships except and inasmuch as all attitudes come under God's transforming power.

Regeneration does not alter our sexual relationships. I am not taking the side here of either in this discussion. I have been pastoring and counseling people with marital and sexual struggles for almost 50 years; I am bruised with the bruisings that people have suffered in this area. Bruises which are the result of absolute positions being taken. I could tell you stories that would make your hair curl. ;-) (that's a point 'if all things are made new' - the word means 'refreshed' - why don't I have any? Hair that is. :-) ) As I have said before in these posts these things are easy to pontificate about in theoretical discussion, it just that hurting people keep getting in the way!

Quote:
It doesn't need a lot of theological expositon, God's promises, His covenant promises are extremely simple.

If I am made anew, born again....let me describe it, Paul references a physical circumsion, and a circumsion of the heart, so does Jeremiah. Implication being that when one is born again, justified, with their sins washed away in the Atoning Blood of the Messiah Jesus, they are a new being.

I agree that it doesn't need a lot of theological exposition; I am not offering it. I am still amazed that you seem to think regeneration changes a person physically. Does a physically circumcised person become whole again in regeneration? of course not. The scriptures make it very plain that the 'bodily part of our beings' does not receive its full 'new' expression in this present life. “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:” (Rom. 3:24, KJVS) This is an accomplished fact; I am justified and redeemed, but there is more to consider...For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.” (Rom. 8:21-23, KJVS) In this passage we are being told that we are still 'part' of the creation which is still groaning and travailing, and that we are 'waiting for' the redemption of our body. Your statements imply that the redemption of the body has already taken place. The seal of the Spirit is the guarantee that the body will be 'redeemed' but at this moment it remains part of a fallen physical world.

Quote:
If you or anyone else think I'm mistaken in this conviction, so be it. A person can cut Scripture any way they want, its the dialogue that happens in the secret place between you and God that matters.

From our previous personal conversations and your posting here on SI I am surprised by this response too. Are you saying that there is no definitive meaning to scripture or are you saying that 'your opinion is as good as mine'? I don't set myself up as any oracle, I simply give my reasons for believing what I believe. It is not true that 'a person can cut scripture any way they want' but what matters is the personal dialogue between me and God; this is Jake territory.

Quote:
I say all the above with respect and love.

and I pass these comments in the same spirit.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/9/9 4:10Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It is definitely possible to be technically married but not become 'one flesh' with a sense of belonging to the other - nurturing responsible mutual love.

1Cor. 6:16 (KJVS) What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. I think you are modifying 'one body/flesh'. Paul is talking about physical union here, not marital bliss.

Quote:
This is a separate subject (and I'm not going into details), but I was wrong to marry who and when I did and I found that a wrong 'marriage' (legal commitment to person one should not be in bed with) is a sin, (as much as fornication is a sin) which cannot lead to the desired end of something God can bless.

I believe this is mistaken and dangerous. Again this kind of thinking, in the past, has resulted in gross immorality. I know of a pastor who held that his marriage to their wife was not in the will of God and that their affinity with a 'sister in the church' was what God had really planned. The journey between that theology and the consequent destruction of the man's marriage and life was a very short one. In fact, I have know of more that one pastor who has taken this short cut to disaster.

What you are doing with these presumptions is to say that a marriage is a marriage only if it is a good marriage and a blessed marriage. I do not believe that is a scriptural position; it is never sin 'to be in bed' with a spouse. Your expression makes 'marriage' a wholly subjective feature.

Quote:
Amazement dawns within her soul
The more she finds she’s been made whole,
Crowned by the ingenuity
Which gives back her virginity

You are confusing two things here. There was once a Catholic pig which was said to be saint. Some protested that the pig had had piglets. Ah, was the response, but it was emotionally a virgin, never having consented to the union. Virginity is not defined by motive or consent. There are different levels at which this issue needs to be addressed. If there has been guilt in regard to sexual activity (and there would be none in child abuse. I am using the word 'guilt' in its biblical connotation as 'blame-worthiness' and not in the modern connotation of 'feelings') we need to make it plain that there is perfect forgiveness and cleansing. And that God has carried all the guilt in the person of his son, so that the 'guilty' is now declared 'justified'.

There is more, the spirit's union with the spirit of disobedience, otherwise known as 'original or congenital sin' is also remedied in genuine regeneration. The spirit is genuinely 'renewed' (Ezek 36:26) and consequently 'virgin' but the body has not yet been 'redeemed' (in its fullest sense) at which time we will all be 're-virginated' and even the physical elements of our beings will find their ultimate salvation; this is usually called resurrection.

However, the 'scars' will remain, just as physical violence might leave scars. A simple but dreadful illustration may serve us. Suppose a young woman has been forcibly taken and violated and is pregnant as a result... If she is genuinely regenerated will the foetus cease to be? Sin has consequences as well as guilt. The classic illustration of this is the story of David...“And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.” (2Sam. 12:13-14, KJVS) The guilt of David's sin was put away in a moment, but the physical consequences rippled through his family. The word spoken to David before his repentance and forgiveness was 2Sam. 12:10 (KJVS) Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. David's sin was immediately 'passed over' as regards his own relationship with God, but the words spoken before his repentance would still stand.

There is a wonderful song by Michael Card called 'Underneath the Door' or 'My father was a doctor'. It tells the story of a Michael Card in his 'diapers' who was frustrated in his attempts to reach his reclusive father. After spending long hours as a doctor his father would shut himself in his study avoiding his family and bringing a lifelong pain to his youngest son who pushed little paintings under the study door to try to contact his father. In this song there is a wonderful section which declaresBut our wounds are part of who we are?And there is nothing left to chance?And pain's the pen that writes the songs?That call us forth to dance. In that phrase he has caught part of the mystery of evil permitted by a good God. We need to tell the 'abused' that they have not been contaminated by what has happened, and that they are not quilty. But let's not tell them that we can re-write history. God will waste nothing, not even the abuses that we have suffered.

Here's the full songMy father was a doctor
Who would come home late at night
With a soul so bruised and bleeding
From his unending, faithful fight
To keep a hold of kindness
In a world that isn't kind
To hold out the hope of healing
To his hurting humankind.

Then he'd flee back to his study
To his bookish, quiet place
With notes and books and journals
To wall in his special space
And then he'd lock the door
From things that cannot be locked out
And his youngest son would starve for what
He'd always do without.

But it was meant to make me who I am
And for all these many years
Still the little boy down on his knees
Full of hope and full of fear
Calling underneath the dorr
"This is me, it's who I am."
Cause we love the best by listening
When we try to understand.

Desperate stubby fingers
Pushing pictures 'neath the door
Longing to be listened to
By the man that I adored
Inside someone who needed me
As much as I did him
Unable to unlock the door
That stayed close inside of him.

It's strange the way we tend to flee
From what we need the most
That a father would lock out a son
When his heart would hold him close
But our wounds are part of who we are
And there is nothing left to chance
And pain's the pen that writes the songs
That call us forth to dance.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/9/9 5:38Profile
1956Ford
Member



Joined: 2005/9/4
Posts: 18
NC

 Re:

're-virginated'
I could only imagine if the man I was going to marry told me that he was a "virgin" and I found out that he had been married before and his spouse was still living...
It would just be another adulterous remarriage that I would have to repent of.
I guess virgin doesn't mean virgin anymore.

When I was under conviciton of the Holy Spirit of being in an adulterous remarriage that scripture is the one a pastor used on me. "All things are new in Christ"
Praise God I listened to the Spirit and God's word instead of men.

Cheryl
My testimony is at http://www.poovy.8m.com


_________________
Cheryl

 2005/9/9 15:42Profile





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