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saved_matt
Member



Joined: 2005/7/3
Posts: 233
Lancashire, England

 Re:

phew.... dont really want to weigh in on this heated debate but to quote Acts 15:7a [b]And when there had been much disputing,[/b] well if they did it why not us?

beenblake,

Quote:
Jesus said, "I am the truth."



is that a quote from an fallible book written by a fallen man (John), maybe Jesus said 'I am [i]a[/i] way, [i]a[/i] truth and [i]a[/i] life'

I'm wondering how you can say you have no authority, (thus you say the Bible is not authorative) and then quote it to the people here as authorative ?

after all Jesus believed the Bible was authorative even to the point of being subject to it's teachings
Quote:
Jesus obeyed the Word of God, not man. He was subject to it. If some leaders’ view of inspiration were true, Jesus was subject to an errant, rather casually thrown-together ‘Word of Man.’ Jesus would have been subject, then, to the will of man, not the will of God.
However, in all the details of His acts of redemption, Jesus was subject to Scripture as God’s Word. He obeyed it. It was His authority, the rule by which He lived. He came to do God’s will, not His own, and not man’s. Note how all of His life He did things because they were written—as if God had directly commanded. He fulfilled Old Testament prophecies about Himself. The passages are found all over the Old Testament. We cite here only a very few quoted in the New Testament: Matthew 11:10; 26:24, 53–56; Mark 9:12, 13; Luke 4:17–21; 18:31–33; 22:37; 24:44–47.
He Himself is the Word of God. All the words from His lips were the Word of God. (John 3:34). If He had desired, He could have written a new set of rules and they would have been the Word of God. But, He did not. He followed without question the Bible already penned by men.
This is the sensible thing for every believer to do. May all who read this adopt Jesus’ attitude and become subject both to Him as Living Word (living Torah) and to the Bible as the infallible, written Word of God.



full article available here [url=http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0406scripture.asp]Jesus Christ on the infallibility of Scripture[/url]

matt


_________________
matt

 2005/8/24 12:26Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote: "Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

God seems to hold a pretty high opinion of His Word... and when we dont, He is not lifted up."


Dear Krispy,

What you say makes perfect sense if God's Word is Jesus. However, since you disagree with this, what is greater: Christ or God's Word?


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/8/24 12:59Profile









 Re:

No, I'm not gonna play a game of semantics with you. You refuse to bolster your arguments with scripture. Scripture is all I have to stand on, and you reject it. So there is nothing more to discuss.

Every discussion I have had with you in your [b]short[/b] time here, both privately and publicly, has been nothing but you playing word games. I dont have time for that.

You've not answered a single question I asked of you... why should I respond to yours?

I'm not sure where you got your twisted view of things, but I have added you to my prayer list.

Krispy

 2005/8/24 13:11
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3317
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I'm not sure where you got your twisted view of things, but I have added you to my prayer list.
Krispy



There you go! As McCloud would say. ;-)


_________________
Bill

 2005/8/24 13:24Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3317
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

beenblake wrote:
Dear Krispy,
what is greater: Christ or God's Word?



beenblake, which is greater to you your heart or your mind? Me personally I could not live with out either. :-?


_________________
Bill

 2005/8/24 13:27Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Many are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am going to simplify this as much as I can.

The bible is book with words inside. Those words have no authority without Christ.

An athiest can read a bible and it says nothing to them, and means nothing to them, because they do not have God. The bible has no power. To them, it is just a book, and many would say it is a poorly written book.

If the bible had power and authority, then an athiest would instantly be convicted of thier sin the minute they read a bible. They would instantly be saved just by reading one word.

What gives the bible power and authority is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit filled humans who then in turn wrote what God directed them. This process was not a word for word process. It could not have been. God did not sit there and dictate word for word to Paul what to write as He wrote all the letters in the new testament. (By the way, the new testament wasn't complete when Paul wrote that scripture in Timothy about the scriptures. He was speaking of the Old testament.)

It is important that the bible was written by humans. The bible is a testimony to Jesus. How can God be a testament to Himself? Think of court room with a witness. What kind of defense would someone have if they were the only person to take the stand?

Rather, there are four gospels that testify to Jesus. They were written by humans. They were intentionally written by humans so as to provide a testament of Christ. (Notice that Jesus did not write any book in the bible Himself. This is why.)

If God wanted to write an infallible law, then He would have written it Himself. He did so with the ten commandments. He wrote them with His own finger. The stones they were written on were held Holy and sacred. They were preserved in the ark. God did not preserve the bible in it's original form. In fact, we do not even have one, not one single original document of the bible. We do not have one single original letter Paul wrote, in his own hand, with his own ink. We have copies.

This is significant. This is important. God did this intentionally. He wanted people to follow Him by faith.

You must first have faith in Jesus, then the bible really begins to talk. People don't get saved by reading the bible to them. They get saved by Jesus Christ. It is the Holy Spirit who convicts a person of thier sin. Not the bible.

You can read the bible all day everyday to a person for the rest of thier life. Unless they believe in Christ, they will not be saved.

Likewise, the bible takes the same faith. You must first have faith in Christ, then you can have faith in the bible. It is not the bible that speaks, teaches, counsels, and corrects a person, it is Jesus.

When a Christian, who is filled with the Holy Spirit, reads the bible, the words become powerful to that person because the Holy Spirit inside of them stirs. Christ who is abiding in thier heart speaks to them through the words in the scriptures.

Evenso, Christians have free will. That is why even Christians still commit sins. God cannot speak to them through the bible, or any other way, unless that person opens thier heart to listen. God cannot transform a person into a new creation unless that person let's God. Even if you are Christian, you still need to learn and grow. No matter what age, or how long you have been Christian, or how smart you are, or how faithful you are, you still have room to grow.

Even I have much room to grow. I have listened to everything being said and have taken it all to heart. I have prayed over everything that people have said, and asked Jesus what I should do. I do not enjoy being judged or persecuted by all of you, but I do it for Christ. He has been leading me.

Please do not mistake my words. I am not saying we should throw the bible out the window. I am not saying the bible is corrupt and we should dismiss it. I am not saying the bible is wrong and false.

This is what I am saying: Christ is Lord. Christ is the authority. Jesus is truth. He is the judge. He is king. He is sovereign. He is God.

The bible is not God. It bears witness to Jesus Christ. The bible is good for teaching, correcting, and instructing. It is not a tool for judging others, or condemning people, or for forcing people into belief. The bible bears no authority, and when you say it does, you are stripping authority from Christ. The bible is just a book. All authority has been given to Christ.


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/8/24 13:52Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Krispy,

I have not rejected scripture. I have rejected any other interpretation of scripture that differs from the Word of God (which is the Holy Spirit).

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2005/8/24 13:56Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3317
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

beenblake wrote:
Many are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am going to simplify this as much as I can.

The bible is book with words inside. Those words have no authority without Christ.


The bible is not God.





Let me correct you a tad:
The bible is book with living words inside.

The bible is not God.
How would you even know who God is without the Bible?


I understand were your coming from if your saying the Bible is not the physical God, I can agree with you there.


_________________
Bill

 2005/8/24 14:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I have not rejected scripture. I have rejected any other interpretation of scripture that differs from the Word of God (which is the Holy Spirit).



In the words of Steve Erwin... "Crikey!"

Krispy

 2005/8/24 14:06









 Re:

Hi again Blake,

I was going to wait till tonite, or until all the men had their say, cuz in the Bible, it's not "lady's first", it's men first. ;-)


Anyhow, well, I wanted to comment now, because this post you just did, "Quote: "Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for [u]thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.[/u]" ...... sort of undoes some of what you are 'trying' to say.


God has magnified His word above His Name, but you've got to understand how David felt about "God's word" at the time, David didn't know "Jesus" yet, but spoke of "Thy Word" as the written Word ... like in Ps. 119.
Please read that Psalm through slowly.

Just a few verses from it ....

Psa 119:89 Forever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
Psa 119:152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them forever.
Psa 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth forever.

Jesus said the same, Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

And when Jesus prayed to The Father in John 17:14 I have given them thy word ...
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

And 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.

And the "thy/the word" that Jesus, David, Peter, etc. spoke of, is that which has been preserved in our Bibles.


I know it's been "misused" as you say, and has not been 'presented' in "Spirit", but still we must be very careful to see, that His words - Scripture, He even puts above His Name... as your verse says.


If you have a Bible program, with a Search engine, type in "Thy word", and then "My Word", etc. ... Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed.


I know what you are saying about the role of the Holy Spirit, as I posted earlier ... but I pray you just seek a little further on how JESUS Himself, feels about Scripture.


You can't know the Jesus of the Bible, until you know Jesus from the Bible. And yes, only the Holy Spirit can reveal THE "truth". Because His Words, are "spiritually discerned", not intellectually.


But to over-emphasis, either one ... Spirit or Truth, makes either neither.


All Spirit, without The Truth of His written Word, is not in 'Spirit', because The Spirit, will only "testify to that Truth".


And all Truth, without The Spirit, is not Truth, because His Word is Spirit.


That may be the point that you are stuck on and can't see that this is a "both/and" thing with God and His Words.

Here is an example of the "both/and" of proper Apologetics - 1Jo 3:24 {Both} And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. {And} And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.



Read Jesus' prayer to The Father in the whole of chpt. 17 of John.

In part ....
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

If you read really carefully, God/Jesus/The Holy Spirit {the Trinity} Hold the written Scripture as equal to The Word of God.


Be open that "we see in part and we know in part", because we "don't know as we should" and "see through a mirror darkly, and 1Co 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.


I've been to hell and back again Blake, as I tried to say this morning on the Art Katz thread, yet the longer I know HIM, the more I see what I don't know.
After 30 yr.s of this walk with HIM, and giving my all to "know" Him ... all I know now is what Paul has already said ...

Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Phi 3:12 [u]Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect[/u]: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:13 [u]Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended[/u]: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.


Be open to what His Written Word says, from cover to cover and don't look at what others do to or with His Words. 2Co 10:12 - 1Co 2:13.


Love in Christ.

Annie

 2005/8/24 14:08





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