SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : THE CALLING OF GOD WITHOUT REPENTANCE

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 )
PosterThread
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: THE CALLING OF GOD WITHOUT REPENTANCE

Kadmiel

Rom 11:29 'repentance'
The word translated 'repentance' here is [u]ametameletos[/u]: this is not the most usual word for 'repentance' in the New Testament. the 'a' at the beginning means 'without' and 'metamellomai,' which is used in such places as Matt. 21:29,32; 27:3; 2Cor. 7:8; Heb. 7:21 This word is not used with the same sense as 'metanoeO'. Vines says ametameletos "not repented of, unregretted" (a, negative, and a verbal adjective of metamelomai), signifies "without change of purpose;" it is said
(a) of God in regard to his "gifts and calling," Rom_11:29;
(b) of man, 2_Cor_7:10, RV, "[repentance (metanoia, see C)] ... which bringeth no regret" (AV, "not to be repented of"); [b]the difference between metanoia and metamelomai, illustrated here, is briefly expressed in the contrast between "repentance" and "regret."[/b] That is the same conclusion that my researches had brought me to.

[u]ametameletos[/u] in Rom 11:29 has been translated as 'without regret' or 'irrevocably'.
Rom. 11:29 (KJVS)
For the gifts and calling of God are [u]without repentance[/u].
2Cor. 7:10 (KJVS)
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. Following of from Vine's comments we might almost paraphrase Rom 11:29 as 'God does not change his plans'

This passage is almost the culmination of Paul's revelations about the nature and destiny of Israel. You will know that Christians have different, and often strongly held, views on this passage. Consequently it is difficult to expound this section without getting into the whole Israel/Church discussion. However I would suggest that if you think about this particular passage the real emphasis is on destiny. Paul has been speaking about men's response to God's revealed will. He has spoken in Ch 9 about the way in which God revealed His will to [b]Pharaoh[/b] (Rom 9:17) God knows what is going to happen but that is not the same as making it happen. Pharaoh made his decision, and instead of becoming a king with a reputation for tolerance and obedience to God (as Cyrus was some time later) he set himself to defy God. It made no difference to the end result but the consequence for Pharaoh and Egypt was catastrophic. However, and this is important, we are not talking about Pharaoh's 'salvation'. This passage has nothing to tell us about whether he ever repented or if he has 'gone to hell'. We are not looking here at Pharaoh's eternal destiny but at his earthly destiny. If you get these two things mixed up you may end up with the conclusion that 'anyone who does not fulfill their calling will go to hell'.

Another 'earthly destiny' that comes into focus is that of [b]Esau[/b] (Rom 9:13) First we ought to remind ourselves that the statement 'Esau have I hated' was first written about 1300 years after Esau had been buried. This was not a pre-destiny that God imposed upon Esau but is a historical summary of the man rather than a prescription for his life. Esau was, by right, the first born son. God declared that the elder would serve the younger, but this did not necessarily determine Esau's own behaviour; it merely predicted it. Esau as you know 'despised his birthright' and as a consequence the 'birthright' and its blessing passed to Jacob. Consequently it is the destiny of Jacob that becomes significant in the Bible revelation rather than that of Esau.

But, again, this passage has nothing at all to do with Esau's 'eternal destinly' (nor Jacob's for that matter) Esau did not forfeit 'salvation' by his despising of the birthright, but he did forfeit an 'earthly destiny'. When the scriptures speak of Esau... “For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.” (Heb. 12:17, KJVS) Esau's 'rejection' was not in terms of 'eternal destiny' but of 'earthly destiny'.

Failure to fulfill our 'calling' may have consequences in this world and in the next but this is not 'salvation' which is in view but faithful stewardship.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/16 9:03Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

letsgetbusy

Quote:
This is just a shot, but the way I heard Leonard Ravenhill talk about it, it means that a man that is called to preach, and has spiritual gifts, may never come to repentance, and miserably ruin himself while still retaining his calling (ministry) and gifts.

In other words he may fulfill the position, and use the talents God gives him, but still never turn his back from his sin. So the gifts and calling are outside the responsiblity we all have to repent.


I have not seen the particular video, but I would be very surprised if this is what Ravenhill is saying. The person 'not repenting' of gifts and calling in Rom 11:29 is God Himself. This verse is not referring to human action but divine. "the free gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" ie God will not revoke them.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/16 9:13Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
In other words he may fulfill the position, and use the talents God gives him, but still never turn his back from his sin. So the gifts and calling are outside the responsiblity we all have to repent.



This is not an uncommon line taken by some in our circles. I have heard Ravenhill say that the Holy Spirit could depart and leave His gift. This was in the interview referring to Jimmy Swaggart and how he "gave his tongues' after having fallen and declared himself to be full of the Holy Ghost. As an illustration he used a woman who had been enguaged to be married and had a ring on her finger. He saw her later with the ring and asked about the man. "He's gone, but he left his gift" (in this case the ring).

I think Ravenhill's comments are too obscure to draw any real conclusions from. Can the Holy Spirit depart and leave His gift? I do not hold this view because I believe the gifts are resident in the Holy Spirit. There are some that believe that the gifts (especially tongues) flow from our spirit as empowered by the Holy Spirit. I do not deny this, but am unclear on it. If this were so we get into other grounds as to exactly what 'spirit' is behind the gift once the Holy Spirit has departed? There are some in Pentecostal circles that speak of a 'memorized tongue'- this is spiritual language without the unction of the Holy Spirit; but recited from habit. This could leave an observer with the impression that the gift was still there, but the Holy Spirit is gone. However, the one speaking with tongues knows if they are speaking with unction or not. Just like you know if you are praying with unction or in your own strength or preaching or teaching with unction.

Samson found out the hard way that one can loose the ability to exercise spirituals (spiritual gifts). He shook himself like at other times and whist not that the Lord had departed. And with the Lord, went his gift of miracles (or whatever so be it was). His hair grew back and he called on God again and God empowered him again in his calling and gift. In this is a solumn warning. You will only shake yourself in sin so many times before the plow gets cleaned.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/8/16 11:11Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
This is not an uncommon line taken by some in our circles. I have heard Ravenhill say that the Holy Spirit could depart and leave His gift.

Hi Robert
In a sense that is another topic rather than an explanation of Rom 11:29. The reference to something being 'without repentance' in this verse has nothing to say about the 'receiver' repenting. It is saying that the 'giver' will not 'repent'. ie change his purpose.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/16 13:44Profile
Kadmiel
Member



Joined: 2005/8/8
Posts: 74
Florida, U.S.A.

 Re: The calling of God is without repentance

I want to thank all of you that responded by saying with great gratitude for your Holy compassion to this issue that i have wrestled with. Truly the body of Christ on here does care.

aeryck:


Quote:
I am a little puzzled as to where you got this idea from



I've read this book a few times but just the other day this jumped off the page to me.

A Divine Revelation of Hell by Mary K. Baxter

Quote:
There is greater punishment for those who once preached the Gospel and went back into sin, or for those who would not obey the call of God for thier lives.

(p.70)

I also did a google search on her book and have seen alot of negative things on different websites in regards to her and her book as well.


Servus:



Quote:
I hope i have helped you in regards to your question



Yes you have and very much so , i'm very gratefull.



Letsgetbusy:



I look forward to listening to " A man of God " by Leonard Ravenhill. Thank you for your honest and helpfull concern.


GrannyAnnie:


Wow, thank you sister for that. My goodness that is so incredible. I spent about 2 hours looking it all over and installing so many things. I do look forward to using this Bible software daily. Thank You with all my heart for your detailed response from e-sword.


dorcas:


Makes a great deal of sense. Thank you ever so much for caring.


Philogos:


Awesome break down of the greek and all you had to share with me. Most incredible.


To all of you thank you for your prayfull time and effort at responding to me. I thank you for you dedication in helping me understand and for your prayers and words of comfort. I have been very blessed by you all and as i write this now i'm flooded with a peace that only our Lord can give. Praise be to God!


His BondServant,


Kadmiel







_________________
Tommy

 2005/8/16 14:04Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Ron,

Quote:
In a sense that is another topic rather than an explanation of Rom 11:29. The reference to something being 'without repentance' in this verse has nothing to say about the 'receiver' repenting. It is saying that the 'giver' will not 'repent'. ie change his purpose.



I understand. I was just trying to shed some light onto the Ravenhill point as I understood it and how that plays out with that mind set that the callings and giftings are without repentance. The concept probably needs to be explored a bit to bring it into focus. Misinterpretations of passages become doctrines pretty easy it seems.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2005/8/16 14:16Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Concerning the Ravenhill quote, I first must say that the elect will be saved, regardless. God knows the number, man does not. Hebrews 6 says that a man can taste the Spirit, but this man has not receieved Christ, neither has Christ received Him. I believe that God may grant a man like this the ability to be a great speaker, and stir emotion, etc. But he himself never repented, therefore never was saved. A man that is called might not respond. I didn't say the Holy Ghost would live in the man, then leave, though I know that Ravenhill might have.

My point is that your calling doesn't save you, neither do any gifts God gave you do anything for you on the Day of Judgement. They are outside, or 'without' the realm of repentance.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2005/8/17 6:20Profile









 Re: Gifts without Repentance

Quote:
neither do any gifts God gave you

letsgetbusy,

Surely one cannot receive the gifts (of the Spirit) unless one has received the Spirit, first?

'The gifts' or 'a gift' in operation is the clear sign to others in the church that one has received the Spirit, and the Spirit with their spirit bears witness that what is being manifest is of THE Holy Spirit.

 2005/8/17 7:14
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
My point is that your calling doesn't save you, neither do any gifts God gave you do anything for you on the Day of Judgement. They are outside, or 'without' the realm of repentance.


Letsgetbusy
I am sure you are right about the first half of this quote, but I am also sure that Rom 11:29 has nothing to do with this topic. The word 'without' is not really in this verse. What we have is a word which means 'regret-less'. I know that in Old English 'without' can mean outside, but not in this verse.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/17 13:48Profile
pastormikefc
Member



Joined: 2012/2/13
Posts: 1


 Re:

the first thing we neeed to understand is no person has any gifts the ifts are given soley to the church and once saved and a part of the church the holy spirit distributes each gift as he wills

 2012/2/13 22:47Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy