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 Re: The Last Days - O Chambers comment


Had recently read the one about disillusionment and was greatly comforted by it and felt vindicated in practice. It's impossible to quote just one or two sentences....

The same people who refused to talk about their adversities before they were saved often complain and worry after being born again because they have the wrong idea of what it means to live the life of a saint.

How did he know? So true of my own experience, I'm gobsmacked! :-?
If you completely give of yourself physically, you become exhausted. But when you give of yourself spiritually, you get more strength. God never gives us strength for tomorrow, or for the next hour, but only for the strain of the moment.

This principle of strengthening as the strain grows is exactly what happens in other fields of human endeavour. I think of women with heart conditions; in pregnancy, if going to be ok, there is a certain stage quite far on, when the heart will either cope, or not. We come to many 'points' when we have the choice of whether we will draw on the Lord's strength, or, capitulate. May He find us ever trusting Him for strength as we need it.

 2005/8/15 15:08


Hia dorcas,

Ya sure have some good gobsmacking times with Him, don't ya ?
[u]Praise the Lord !!![/u] :-D

Again, I just thought of Stephen. He was only chosen to take care of the widows and "serve tables", even though, Just for that job, the person had to be "full of the Holy Ghost and Wisdom" (imagine that.), while the others would give themselves to "prayer & ministry", but then, almost 2 whole chapters are dedicated to Stephen ... and it's such a testimony, of how any of us, can trust God to be there for us, when persecution comes.

I've gotta put some of those chpt.s down.

There's so much to see and glean from these.

[b]Act 6:1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples were multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
Act 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
Act 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Act 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
Act 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
Act 6:6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.
Act 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.
Act 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
Act 6:9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.
Act 6:10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake.
Act 6:11 Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.
Act 6:12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
Act 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
Act 6:14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.
Act 6:15 And all that sat in the council, looking steadfastly on him, [u]saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.[/u] {'The Glory' God promised 1Pe 4:14 - upon those going through persecution}

Then he preaches to them for the whole of chpt. 7 and ...

Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus [u]standing[/u] on the right hand of God, {Jesus STOOD UP just for Stephen - Wow !}
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 [u]And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.[/u] {Loving & Forgiving our persecutors - Phew !}

Act 8:2 And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him.[/b]

Mists up the ol' eyeballs, huh ?

God BLESS ya Dorcas.

 2005/8/15 15:43

 Re: Last Days Doctrine

I am not unfamiliar with Daniel and we have been in Joel's 'last days' since the day of Pentecost. To create an eschatological timetable from Daniel and then to build in an expectation of a different kind of Christianity for the 'very' last days has been discussed in these threads from time to time. [u]It is an abberation of orthodox hermeneutics and is to be resisted. If there are specific references in Daniel to such things which I have missed I would ask you to point them out for us all.[/u]

Emphasis mine.

"an abberation of orthodox hermeneutics and is to be resisted" ..... Says Who ???

Not The Word of God and That's for sure.

If one thinks we've been in the "Last Days" since Pentecost and also believes that those who go through The Tribulation as Saints/Elect, are no different or will be no different, then they've been all these miserable days, since Christ rose ... then this surely needs addressing.
Now would be the time, I would say. Because that would explain a lot of things around here, of why there is no desperate searching out on certain issues.

I'm going to start with just the term "The Last Days".
Hope you can follow, because I don't have time to simplify it anymore. Some of it you will have to Search Out yourself.

"The Last Days"

What, Which, When.

Acts 2:16 ~ "But [u]this[/u] is ....."

Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.Act 2:16 But235 "this"5124 is2076 [i]that which was[/i] spoken2046 by1223 the3588 prophet4396 Joel2493

****In verse 16, Peter is saying that [u]'this'[/u], the "manifestation" that you are seeing, is not Drunkeness, but "this" {"this" being a "[u]Demonstrative Pronoun[/u]" meaning, 'this' particular "manifestation" that the crowd was seeing.} is spoken by the Prophet Joel.

Then he goes on to tell, what they are seeing presently, at that moment and backs it up with their own Scriptures, so they'd understand what they were seeing ... the "this" Peter was referring to in verse 15 & 16... the explanation of the visible/audible "manifestation" of Pentecost .......

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

****The nest two verses are Future Tense ........

Act 2:19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: { Mal_4:1-6}
Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

{ Joel 2:10 & 31 & 3:15~ here in Acts and Isaiah 13:9-13 ~ Ezekiel 32:7 & 8 ~ Matt 24: 29 ~ Mark 13:24 ~ Luke 21:25 ~ Rev. 6:12}

(Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of [b]those days[/b] shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken) ETC.

Isa 2:2 [u]And it shall come to pass in the last days[/u], that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Mic 4:1 [u]But in the last days it shall come to pass[/u], that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, [u]that in the last days perilous times shall come.[/u]

Jam 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together [u]for the last days.[/u]

Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

1Jo 2:18 Little children,3813[b] it is2076[/b] the last2078 time{HOUR}5610 and2532 as2531 ye have heard191 that3754 antichrist500 shall come,2064 even2532 now3568 are1096 there many4183 antichrists;500 whereby3606 we know1097 that3754 [b]it is2076[/b] the last2078 time{HOUR}.5610
****Check out what all your commentaries in e-sword or whatever you have, says about this verse. It would take up a whole page here.

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there[u] shall come in the last days[/u] scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
****Peter here speaking of the age of grace and the last days for the Temple and it's sacrifices for sin. The days of the New Covenant. Hebrews speaks to this in 1:2, 8:8,10 & 10:16
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds
But Peter in his 2nd Epistle speaks that .... 2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there [u]shall come in the last days[/u] ..... And the whole of that chapter is future tense.

The O.T. Jews, knew what the Last Days meant .... it was when all heck would break out and then Messiah would come to deliver them, physically .... that is why some were dissappointed with Jesus' First appearance. They thought He'd deliver from the Roman occupation.

If you cross-reference Matt. 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 with the O.T., you'll see plainly that these Jews knew what "those days" would be like and what things would help them to see that they were "in" those last days.
Just type in "those days" in your Bible search program. Look especially at Jeremiah's list.

Do a Search on what the earliest of the Early Church Father's had to say about the days ahead and what type of "Christians" we will need to be in order to be Overcomers. Those who sat 'under John' the Apostle.

The only two verses in the entire Bible, that may use the terms, "last days" or "Last times" for ..... "since Jesus had come" are, Heb 1:2 and 1Pe 1:20 ...... but these are not used in the eschatological sense of 'THE Last Days' ( or "those days"), that the rest of Prophecy speaks of, future tense (though not future tense necessarily for [u]us[/u] anymore.) - in both the Old and New Testaments.

It would also be a good idea to do a full Commentary search on Heb.1:2 and 1Peter 1:20, to understand how the words "time past and last times" are used in reference to the dispensation of Grace and not eschatologically.

There is an eschatological "time-table", that started Ticking, when Israel became a nation.
From that point on, Jesus warns us to "watch" the signs.
The "signs" are all through the O.T. Prophets and the N.T..

If we are not 'watching', we will not receive the needed 'revealing' that God had promised to those who stayed "awake".

Jesus said, the last days would be the worse the world has ever seen or ever will see. [u]How could your average Christian get through this horror that is about to come upon the earth ???[/u]

To say that the Last Days Overcomers, are "no different" than your average Christian, is the "abberation of orthodox hermeneutics and is to be resisted."

And though I'd much rather forget this issue and move unto more pleasant issues, for the sake of The Church, whoever they are, I can't.

This issue of what it will take to be one of the "Overcomers" of Revelation, NEEDS to be address and none too soon.


 2005/8/23 17:12

 Re: Last Days Doctrine

Part 2 ~

What must the End Time/Last Days Saints/Elect 'endure' in order to "Overcome". {Partial List Only}

[b]Mar 13:19 [i]For in [u]those days[/u] shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened [u]those days[/u], no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.[/i]

Mat :{starting at vs 4} 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 [u]But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.[/u]

Mat 24:22 And except [u]those days[/u] should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of [u]those days[/u] shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, [u]This generation[/u] shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: [u]for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed[/u], the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Mark {starting at vs. 5} 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in [u]those days[/u]Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. !

Mar 13:13 [u]And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.[/u]
Mar 13:14 But when [u]ye[/u] shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, let (him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains

Mar 13:23 [u]But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.[/u]
Mar 13:24 But in [u]those days[/u], 'AFTER that tribulation', the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Mark {starting from vs 5} 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that [u]this generation[/u] shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Mar 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, [u]Watch[/u].

Luk {starting with vs 8} 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
Luk 21:31 So likewise ye,[u] when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.[/u]
Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, [u]This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.[/u]
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 [u]For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape< {flee on one's own} all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.[/u]

1Th 5:4 [u]But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.[/u]
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us[u] watch[/u] and be sober.Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. [u]If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief[/u], and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Amo 8:11 [u]Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD[/u]:
Amo 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Amo 8:13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

Dan 7:21 [u]I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them[/u];
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 11:32 [u]And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be helped with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.[/u]

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: [u]and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was[/u]{Mark 13:19} since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever.
Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, [u]shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end[/u]: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and swore by him that liveth forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: [u]for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried[/u]; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; [u]but the wise shall understand.[/u]
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 [u]Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.[/u]
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, [u]until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

{Verse 6:11 fulfilled in 7:14}

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[/u]

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13:7 [u]And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them[/u]: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 [u]If any man have an ear, let him hear.[/u]
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. [u]Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.[/u]

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 [u]Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.[/u]
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, [u]Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.[/u]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [u]I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[/u]
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. [/b]

 2005/8/24 3:22

 Re: Last Days Doctrine

[b]Corrie Ten Boom - on going through the coming Tribulation.[/b]


Miss Corrie Ten Boom was a Dutch survivor of the Nazi Concentration Camps, and a lifelong missionary. Corrie was a believer in facing tribulation. She was one of the many people who were persecuted in concentration camps during the World War II. Her family was murdered before her eyes, but though her life was threatened, God led her through that terrible time. She lived to testify all over the world of how God brought her out of that time of trouble. In the worst days in the concentration camp she and her sister Betsy discovered that "there is no pit so deep that the Presence of God is not there with us". In an interview titled "Prepared for the Coming Tribulation", Miss Corrie Ten Boom held very definite view concerning this. In the following message she shared a plea for the saints to prepare themselves for the possibility that at some point their faith may be tested. It serves today as a timely warning to us in the comfortable and complacent western church as we approach the threshold of the endtime drama.

Here is her exhortation to us from a letter she wrote in 1974................

"The world is deathly ill. It is dying. The Great Physician has already signed the death certificate. Yet there is still a great work for Christians to do. They are to be streams of living water, channels of mercy to those who are still in the world. It is possible for them to do this because they are ‘overcomers.’
Christians are ambassadors for Christ. They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world. And because of our presence here, things can change for others.

My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of loving Jews. Seven hundred of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred. As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room.
We may have been the Lord's only representatives in that place of hatred, yet because of our presence there, things changed. Jesus said, "In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." We too, are to be overcomers – bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.

Sometimes I get frightened as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true. Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages. I can now come to shouting "Hallelujah! Hallelujah!" for I have found where it is written that Jesus said, "He that overcometh shall inherit all things: and I will be His God, and he shall be My son." This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive – but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.

Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick. "Yes, the Lord will heal me,", Betsy said with confidence. She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.
It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that. Yet because of Betsy's death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.
There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.
In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,
"We have failed.
We should have made the people strong for persecution rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
– to stand and not faint."
I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.
We are next.
Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus' sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, "Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation." Then I write it down and learn it by heart. (Editor’s note: Wonderful idea.)

When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, "Nothing could be any worse than today." But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time, a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy.

“If you be reproached (suffer) for the name of Christ, happy-blessed are you; for the Spirit of glory and of God (the same Glory and Spirit of God that rested over The Tabernacle in the O.T.) will rest upon you. On their part He is evil spoken of, but on your part He is Glorified.”
1 Peter 4 : 14
I found myself saying, "Hallelujah! - Because I am suffering, Jesus is Glorified!"

In America, the churches sing, "Let the congregation escape tribulation" (I‘ll fly away, etc.), but in China and Africa etc., tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was there some of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered.
The fourth day I was to speak in a little church. The people came, but they were filled with fear and tension. All during the service they were looking at each other, their eyes asking, "Will this one I am sitting beside be the next one killed? Will I be the next one?"
The room was hot and stuffy with insects that came through the screenless windows and swirled around the naked bulbs over the bare wooden benches. I told them a story out of my childhood.
"When I was a little girl, " I said, "I went to my father and said,
"Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a marty for Jesus Christ."
"Tell me," said Father,
"When you take a train trip to Amsterdam,
when do I give you the money for the ticket?
Three weeks before?"
"No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train." "That is right," my father said, "and so it is with God's strength.
Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ.
He will supply all you need – [u]just in time[/u]…"
My African friends were nodding and smiling. Suddenly a spirit of joy descended upon that church and the people began singing,
“In the sweet, by and by, we shall meet on that beautiful shore.”

Later that week, half the congregation of that church was executed. I heard later that the other half was killed some months ago.
But I must tell you something. I was so happy that the Lord used me to encourage these people, for unlike many of their leaders, I had the word of God. I had been to the Bible and discovered that Jesus said He had not only overcome the world, but to all those who remained faithful to the end, He would give a crown of life. Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that you may be tried; and you shall have tribulation ten days; be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

How can we get ready for the persecution?

~ First we need to feed on the word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

~ Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of History, but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive and sitting at the right hand of God.

~ We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.

~ In the coming persecution we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other. But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting. The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian's life.

Many are fearful of the coming tribulation, they want to run. I, too an a little bit afraid when I think that after all my years, including the horrible nazi concentration camp, that I might have to go through the tribulation also. But then I read the Bible and I am glad.

When I am weak, then I shall be strong, the Bible says. Betsy and I were prisoners for the Lord, we were so weak, but we got power because the Holy Spirit was on us. That mighty inner strengthening of the Holy Spirit helped us through. No, you will not be strong in yourself when the tribulation comes. Rather, you will be strong in the power of Him who will not forsake you. For seventy-six years I have known the Lord Jesus and not once has He ever left me, or let me down.

"Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him", for I know that to all who overcome, He shall give the crown of life.
-Corrie Ten Boom-1974

 2005/8/25 12:54

 Re: End Times Stuff.

Corrie Ten Boom spoke well and I know others who speak much better than me.

Another great one,

Matthew 24 by R. C. Ryle

Also good to read by Ryle, 'Matt. 25' and 'Occupy Till I Come'.

 2005/8/30 8:34

Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131


I recently posted about 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. I did that because I was in a situation like Grannie Annie spoke of...I just want to know the truth. I have believed in a Pre-Trib rapture my entire life..until last week.

I feel that God has opened my eyes to the truth of a Post Trib rapture/second coming.

For me, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3was what did it for me.

1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Jesus will not return and we will not be gathered together to him until the apostasy and the antichrist is revealed.

 2006/1/10 9:57Profile

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


Hi JaySaved...!

To date, I am uncertain as to the "rapture" -- especially whether it will be a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib. Some ministers, like David Wilkerson and Chuck Smith, hold to the traditional pre-trib notion of a "catching away" before the "[i]wrath of God[/i]" is poured upon the Earth. Look at the Times Square Church homepage and click on the Statements of Faith, including other articles on their website concerning the issue), as well as a study written by Calvary Chapel founder Chuck Smith:

I do not at all believe in the idea that the Rapture is meant to save Christians from [i]persecution[/i]. [i]Persecution[/i] is [u]not[/u] the "[i]wrath of God[/i]." Rather, it is the wrath of man (or men influenced by the kingdom of darkness). However, there are some verses that seem to indicate that God will "keep us" from the "hour of trial" that will come upon the entire earth. Whether or not that this indicates that God will take us out -- or protect us while here -- is a matter of debate or opinion.

Currently, I lean toward a belief in a "rapture" and a belief that it will take place "pre-trib." While the "man of perdition" might certainly be revealed before such a "rapture" takes place, his true identity will still be a mystery, at least to the world, since "[i]if it were possible, he would deceive the very elect[/i]."

But I like what Keith Green said once, "[i]Pray for a Rapture -- but prepare for the Tribulation[/i]."
You can't go wrong if you are ready for both!



 2006/1/10 12:07Profile


Hi JaySaved and Ccchhhrrriiisss :-) ,

I liked what you noticed Jay, in your own thread on Thess.., where you mentioned that you are noticing a lot of "that day" mentioned.

You couldn't be more right... from O.T. to New.

[u]Nothing matters at all, but what God's Word says.[/u]

Times Square's SOF has the "cover all beliefs" sentence, that many have adopted. Mostly those who are 'not' pretrib, have this one in their SOF.

#11 In the resurrection and final judgment of both the saved and
the lost, the one to everlasting life and the other to everlasting damnation.

But though it "seems" to cover all, it is actually NOT a pre-trib statement, because it has "the just and the unjust" 'receiving' at the "same time" .... just as the Bible says. {Matt 13,etc. etc. etc.)

David Wilkerson, himself, has not been pre-trib for many years. But as his representative in Texas told me ... he doesn't "go there", so as not to cause what usually happens when this debate begins.

If it could just stay Scriptural and Historic (as in the ECFs, etc), then it would be an honest and fair discussion ... the "I think(s)" always lead to nothing,,, and mostly in God's eyes. He only cares what "Is Written".

As Tim Lahaye said, "You CAN'T prove pre-trib
with Scripture". :-(

It [b]is[/b] important 'what' we believe.

God would never leave us confused.

He wrote His Word for a child to understand.

Jay, I'd like to contribute to either this thread or yours on Thess... I feel, the time is short to share such things.

With His Love.

 2006/1/10 15:11

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


Hi MeAgain...!

That is very interesting information about David Wilkerson. His Church's website (Times Square Church) indicates that the Church believes in the "Rapture" (see Article #4 of the SOF: "[i]We Believe...In the blessed hope, the rapture of the Church at Christ’s coming.[/i]"). Since there are several articles still contained in the TSC Pulpit Series concerning references to a "pre-tribulation 'Rapture,'" I just assumed that Brother Wilkerson still held such a belief.

I have not read any of this latest books, particulary [i]America's Last Call[/i]. Does anyone know whether or not he covers the issue of the "Rapture" in it? Has anyone heard any of his more recent messages on the subject? It would be quite interesting to confirm where Brother Wilkerson stands on this issue.




 2006/1/10 16:47Profile

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