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MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3317
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Thank you Ellie...

I would recommend that anyone who is new here (beenblake) take time to understand where people are coming from here. There are thousands and thousands of posts on this site that people have written. It's dangerous to show up on a forum and start comment on people who have been here for awhile.Krispy



I have learned that is pretty much with any forum anyone joins the above is excellent advice. :-?


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Bill

 2005/8/12 9:50Profile









 Re:

Quote:
[b]beenblake wrote:[/b] Therefore, to say there is only one true bible is ridiculous and blasphemous. There is only one true God. There is only one Holy Spirit. His Spirit is not a book.



Joh 1:1 [i]In the beginning was the [b]Word[/b], and the [b]Word[/b] was with God, and the [b]Word was God[/b].[/i]

Joh 1:14 [i]And the [b]Word was made flesh[/b], and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and [b]truth[/b].[/i]

Isa 66:5 [i]Hear the [b]word[/b] of the LORD, ye that [b]tremble at his word[/b]; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.[/i]

Psa 12:6-7 [i]The [b]words[/b] of the LORD are [b]pure words[/b]: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. [b]Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt [b][u][i][color=FF0000]preserve[/color][/i][/u] them from this generation [u][i][color=FF0000]forever[/color][/i][/u][/b].

Psa 119:89 [i]Forever, O LORD, thy [b]word[/b] is settled in heaven.[/i]

Psa 138:2 [i]I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: [b]for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.[/b][/i]

Intersting to note that God has magnified His word above all his name. God puts a bigger value on His word than most Christians do. After reading these scripture, I can not help but think that this is a serious topic. Anytime we see a defiation in a modern version... it is a very [b]serious[/b] thing.

I've been accused on this thread of having fear. Well, I dont fear evil, and I dont fear men who would butcher scriture... whether intentionally or not. But the poster is correct. I do fear one thing: [b]GOD[/b]!

Pro 1:7 [i]The [b]fear[/b] of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.[/i]

Pro 9:10 [i]The [b]fear[/b] of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.[/i]

Krispy

 2005/8/12 10:14
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Geez...

After reading all these posts....

I'm not sure what to believe.



Sentry.
I am very grateful that you posted this. I am very conscious of this continuing danger when we get into this territory. The problem is if someone believes something which is not quite what they thought what should we do about that? Is it better to leave them believing something which may not be quite as they thought or is it better to say something?

If this were a matter of salvation (and it is not) it would be an easier answer. We would say no matter how long you have believed it, and no matter how comfortable it makes you feel, be sure that your faith is based on the truth not just what many have declared to be the truth.

I will tell you why I personally sometimes risk disturbing people. When people put their faith in an idea which is not proven scripturaly it makes them very vulnerable. Let me illustrate from another thorny topic; creation. One of my sons was raised as a 'young earther' at his dad's side. When he began to study biology he manfully tried to remain 'loyal' to his dad although in his conscience he began to struggle. He had believed the package deal and to question any part of it was disloyal. I had no idea that his 'faith' in dad's interpretation of Genesis was under such pressure, until one day he said "I can't believe the Bible anymore" "why?" I asked. "I can't believe the first page" he replied. This is known as throwing out babies with the bath water, but young teenagers deal in absolutes.

It forced me to listen to other Christians who were not 'young earthers'. My science was hardly up to the task but I began to read. We began to talk about other Christians who believed in another way of interpreting Genesis. It took a long time even to get a foundation down. To explain that to differ from 'dad's theology' did not mean he had to abandon the whole bible.

Let me tell you what I think happened, and I think it happens more than we might think with young Christians. An illustration might serve... When an army goes on to the attack the advantage initially lies with the attacking side; suprise and the energy of the attack gives them the initiative. Usually territory will be gained in the initial advance, but as the attacking army advances it may overextend and become vulnerable in its supply line. The further the advancing army gets from its solid foundation and supply the more the advantage switches to the 'defenders'. If the advance cannot be held at this point the counter-attack will very likely not only recapture the lost territory, but will over-run the original attackers so that the final condition is worse than if they had never attacked in the first place.

Conscience is a delicate instrument and if we over-ride it we may weaken it to such an extent that when the counter-attack comes it will be a rout. (a overwhelming and disorderly retreat) If we defend the indefensible we may gain an early victory but when the counter-attack comes we may be driven from the field. We ought not to be in a hurry to get people to believe things; they must take their own time and at times be prepared to move only as quickly as their conscience can cope with. If they have taken steps A, B, C, but then swarm ahead to E, F, G, H in advance of their conscience they will be vulnerable. The counter attack may not only take back H,G,F,E. but in the charge take C, B, and A too.

We do not need to be afraid of the truth wherever we find it. If God has revealed things to us our conscience will keep pace with it and we shall stand strong when the counter-attack comes. But if we have believed what men told us in our 'school' of understanding and are defending their position rather than our own, we stand in danger.

Hope the complicated illustration has not disturbed you too much.;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2005/8/12 10:34Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Psa 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever.



Krispy
You have quoted this passage on more than one occasion and I think it may be foundational to the way you see the whole transmitted text issue. I am not sure that it says what you think it is saying.

The word 'from' could mean the starting point, so that God is promising to 'preserve from this point and forwards for ever', but it could also mean 'preserve against this generation'. In fact the 'them' may not even be referring to the words but to the 'godly' of verse 1 and this is the sense the Youngs Literal translation takes “Thou, O Jehovah, dost preserve them, Thou keepest us from this generation to the age.” (Psa. 12:7, YNG) In fact this fits much more with the final verse, so that the whole section reads as in the KJV. “Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.” (Psa. 12:7-8, KJVS)Now, I do believe God has watched over his written word, but your view seems to indicate that you believe that 'somewhere' there is a perfect 'copy' of what God said. I don't think the scholars who like you and I support the Byzantine textcode would ever claim this. If mu understanding of your interpretation were correct it must mean that either there is a perfect copy somewhere or God has broken His promise; I don't believe either of these is the case.


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Ron Bailey

 2005/8/12 10:57Profile









 Re:

philologos... I've heard both sides of this. I do believe that based on this verse that God has promised to preserve His Word unto all generations. However, you raise some good points, and if I am misinterpreting this verse, well... what can I say?

I think my main point would be: Why [i]wouldnt[/i] God preserve His Word? Why would he allow it to be corrupted to a point where there is no way of knowing that what we are reading is the truth? If we ask these questions in light of Psa 12:6-7, then I think we can conclude that He will and has preserved His Word.

Not necessarily in a grammatical sense, but the meaning of the text. The modern versions often have a different meaning than the Bibles based on the RT. Sometimes they eliminate verse completely, tearing apart many different doctrinal issues.

But I'm listenin', brutha... keep talkin'.

Krispy

 2005/8/12 11:41
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
But I'm listenin', brutha... keep talkin'.

Krispy


You realise, don't you, that if you ever change sides I will take up the other viewpoint? ;-) I often find myself on both sides of a discussion and sometimes on neither, but I do want folks to think about their faith and not pick it up second hand from some some extreme website. Not that I think that is a danger for you. You realise too, I'm sure that I don't want you to change your mind, just to open it a little wider. ;-) I think we all have so much to learn from each other. God preserve us from the fate of those who are recorded in Wesley's journal who said of certain that he met that ...they had sundry excellent qualities, but unfortunately they knew everything and therefore learned nothing.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/12 13:38Profile









 Re:

Quote:
You realise, don't you, that if you ever change sides I will take up the other viewpoint? I often find myself on both sides of a discussion and sometimes on neither, but I do want folks to think about their faith and not pick it up second hand from some some extreme website. Not that I think that is a danger for you. You realise too, I'm sure that I don't want you to change your mind, just to open it a little wider. I think we all have so much to learn from each other. God preserve us from the fate of those who are recorded in Wesley's journal who said of certain that he met that ...they had sundry excellent qualities, but unfortunately they knew everything and therefore learned nothing.



Absolutely... this is exactly why I have so much respect for you. I mean think about it... you're a Brit who used to watch the Dukes of Hazzard! How cool is that?

All kidding aside, I'm not planning to change my mind unless the Holy Spirit leads me to. However, I am always interested in understanding why someone disagrees with me on some point. Thats why I started researching this topic in the first place. I used to read the NIV. Then I began to read the NIV and the NASB... etc etc. At one point I had 8 modern versions that I would refer to in my study of the Bible. One day a good friend pointed out some things to me in the NIV... and I set out to proove him wrong. But as I studied the issue my mind and attitude began to change, and eventually I ended up where I am now.

Kinda like Josh McDowell. He set out to proove Christianity was not based on truth... and ended up getting saved, and writing Evidence That Demands A Verdict... which is perhaps one of the best apologetics book there is.

Anyway, I think my mind is open to what you have to say. With me, I have to respect someone's knowledge and wisdom before I become too open to their opinions. I dont just listen to any Joe on the street... I have to know the person knows what their talking about before I really begin to chew on their words. And you, philologos, have definately earned my respect. Especially on this topic. You have a lot things rolling around in your head (and your heart) that I want to learn from you.

Is this the Mutual Admiration Society, or what? LOL

Krispy

 2005/8/12 13:47
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Is this the Mutual Admiration Society, or what? LOL

I only choose friends with impeccable discernment! 8-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/12 14:11Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I only choose friends with impeccable discernment!



Guess that would exclude me, eh? :-x

Krispy :-?

 2005/8/12 14:22
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

No, you were specifically 'included'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/8/12 14:26Profile





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