Quick homework assignment... everyone do a verse comparison of the following verse without using the footnotes in your Bible...
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (KJV)
The problem with such comparisons is that you are comparing a [i]translation[/i] with other [i]translations[/i]. This could be as bad as tuning one piano with another piano. You may end up with [u]two[/u] out-of-tune pianos. Unfortunately, I do not speak ancient greek. And even if I did, who is to say that the earliest "received text" that is available is the best?
Such verse-by-verse comparisons would take forever -- and could be a [i]chasing after the wind[/i]. There are [i]obvious[/i] flaws in all translations -- including the King James Version (especially the fifth edition in use today). In an earlier post, I mentioned [b]Acts 12:4[/b]:
"And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people."
"After arresting him, he put him in prison, handing him over to be guarded by four squads of four soldiers each. Herod intended to bring him out for public trial after the Passover."
"When he had seized him, he put him in prison, delivering him to four squads of soldiers to guard him, intending after the Passover to bring him out before the people."
"So when he had arrested him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four squads of soldiers to keep him, intending to bring him before the people after Passover."
"whom having seized he put in prison, having delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep, purposing after the passover to bring him out to the people."
Notice that the King James Version is the [u]only[/u] version to use the word [i][u]Easter[/u][/i]. Obviously, the KJV is flawed in using this word. How do we know this? Well, we know that the word [i]Easter[/i] is from pagan origins -- and originated many centuries after the death of Peter and Paul. The early church did not "celebrate" roman holidays like Easter (or Christmas, etc...). Such inclusion was probably the result of the instructions by King James to the translators to include such traditionally Catholic ecclesiastical terminology.
But such flaws do not nullify the Word of God. It only makes us realize that the [i]translating[/i] was flawed -- because it was done by flawed humanity. Many people in the world point to many such obvious flaws in order to discredit Christianity. However, it only serves to strengthen our faith. Why? Because the Scriptures have been translated many times for millennia -- and the overwhelming bulk of it is indisputable! God has preserved it for thousands of years, with very few discrepencies. And with each of these discrepencies, we are able to understand them -- because we know the heart of God.
And remember, the Word of God is [i]living[/i] and [i]active[/i]. Like Leonard Ravenhill reminds us in the title of one of his books, [i]Sodom Had No Bible[/i]. Neither did Noah...or Moses...or Abraham. The Word of God is alive within us. Of course, everything that we believe and teach should line up with the written Word. But as long as the translation is literal and academically sound, it stands the test of authenticity.
The argument that the King James Version is the [i]only preserved version[/i] is quite hollow -- and unwittingly prejudiced. Imagine where that leaves all other peoples of the earth. Many of these foreign versions pre-date even the original King James Version (1611) -- not to mention the common fifth edition KJV.
Again, I recommend that the seriously concerned believer to sincerely and openly research each version without prejudice. Such research can undoubtedly be helpful to the honest believer.
| 2005/8/11 14:09||Profile|
Well I still disagree with you but thats alright as long as we agree to disagree and move on.
It wasn't a personal opinion I was sharing. I can prove to you that the RV, ASV and NASB generally show more 'formal' or 'literal' equivalence than the KJV. This is evidenced among other things in the actual order of the words; frequently Tyndale chose the order for its sound, whereas these later translators actually tried to keep to the strict word order.In the KJV in Romans 6 we have..
Rom. 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into [u]Jesus Christ[/u] were baptized into his death?
Rom. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through [u]Jesus Christ[/u] our Lord.
Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through [u]Jesus Christ[/u] our Lord.
Whereas in the ASV we have
Rom. 6:3 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into [u]Christ Jesus[/u] were baptized into his death?
Rom. 6:11 Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in [u]Christ Jesus[/u].
Rom. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in [u]Christ Jesus[/u] our Lord. Some of the old Brethren saw significance in this reversal of the word Christ and Jesus. This is Thomas Newberry "Jesus Christ: His title as living and dying on earth; here the emphasis is upon 'Jesus' as expressed by it being place first.
Christ Jesus: His title as risen and glorified. Anointed for his heavenly priesthood. Here the emphasis is on 'Christ' as now glorified. It does not occur in the gospels. Here is a list of the occasions where his title is expressed as Christ Jesus - Acts 24:24; Rom. 3:24; 6:3,11,23; 8:1-2,11,34,39; 15:5,16-17; 16:3; 1Cor. 1:2,4,30; 4:15; 15:31; 16:24; 2Cor. 1:1; 4:5; Gal. 2:4,16; 3:14,26,28; 4:14; 5:6,24; Eph. 1:1; 2:6-7,10,13,20; 3:1,6,11,21; Phil. 1:1,8,26; 2:5; 3:3,8,12,14; 4:7,19,21; Col. 1:1,4; 2:6; 4:12; 1Th. 2:14; 5:18; 1Tim. 1:1-2,12,14-15; 2:5; 3:13; 4:6; 5:21; 6:13; 2Tim. 1:1-2,9-10,13; 2:1,3,10; 3:12,15; 4:1; Titus 1:4; Philem. 1:1,9,23
In some of these the KJV has the right order and in others has reversed them. I don't think the translators of the RV/ASV/NASB were better Bible students, it just that their methodology was more 'formal equivalence' orientated that was the KJV.
| 2005/8/11 14:38||Profile|
The problem with such comparisons is that you are comparing a translation with other translations.
No, the problem with such comparisons is... it cant be done! That particular verse (along with hundreds of others) is gone, missing, not there in the versions that are based on the Alexandrian stream of Greek texts. This particular verse changes the doctrine of baptism. The doctrine of fasting (why and what for) is completely missing in the NT of the modern versions. Fasting is mentioned, but there is no explanation as to why, or the purpose of it. The KJV is clear about fasting.
I think that is pretty serious.
| 2005/8/11 16:00|
My personal reason for fasting is mentioned in most every version of the bible I can get my hands on (I own 5 physical versions and I have 2 computer programs that have around 25 versions each). It clearly states in most every bible that [i]But an evil spirit of this kind is only driven out by prayer and fasting." Matthew 17:21[/i]. And that is in WNT translation.
But I do agree that for the most part KJV is the best translation for getting your point across, but there are sometimes that a different version says it better. This thread could go on for years and the only way to know for 110% is for someone to get a hold of the original documents and read them. We all know that is impossible so I think that it is a matter of opinion now.
P.S. Let the "your wrong and the check your facts begin"
| 2005/8/11 16:46||Profile|
Quote:Have you ever thought to consider that perhaps it is missing because some of the most reliable greek transcripts now available might [i]not[/i] have contained that passage? And I disagree that with the notion that other translations change the importance of doctrinal beliefs like fasting or baptism. From the Scriptures (as a whole) it is quite clear that fasting and baptism is important.
"No, the problem with such comparisons is... it cant be done! That particular verse (along with hundreds of others) is gone, missing, not there in the versions that are based on the Alexandrian stream of Greek texts. This particular verse changes the doctrine of baptism. The doctrine of fasting (why and what for) is completely missing in the NT of the modern versions. Fasting is mentioned, but there is no explanation as to why, or the purpose of it. The KJV is clear about fasting."
There are many who place utmost faith in the "received text" (or correctly in latin, the "textus receptus"). Since I am not a scholar in ancient greek, I cannot vouch for the authenticity or non-authenticity of such manuscripts. But I also cannot dismiss that there are other manuscripts (some even older than those used for the "received text").
| 2005/8/11 17:04||Profile|
| Re: In Awe of Thy Word|
alt-add: I realized that my post was to heavy and irrelevant, so this is it slightly, lol amended.
I have watched this thread growing and I know it is going to swell, for this thread reflects our, 'common faith'. There are doctrines in the Word of God, that will I hope always remain constant.
So to Professor Gail Riplinger our sister who loves us and has spent a lot of time compiling:
In Awe of Thy Word.
Eric John Sawyer
| 2005/8/11 18:33||Profile|
| Re: Havent we argued this many a time|
I wish I could bring up the thread so i could generalize what was on them!! it would make like alot easier to actually have a section with what people believe in their profile!! because this issue pops up so many times!!
| 2005/8/11 18:46||Profile|
My, my, brother Krispy. Why are you so defensive? What is it that you fear? You are constantly on the defense as if everyone is judging you, all the while critizing everyone and everything else.
Let me share a little secret with you: only Jesus is perfect; only God is good. This means everything else is corrupt. Yes, indeed, Metzger is corrupt. The bible says that all men are bad. This includes all the apostles who wrote the bible, all the translators who translated the bible, and even Tyndale. And yet, God has chosen to use these bad/corrupt men to deliver His word. Why? God is greater than men. He can use evil to bring about good.
Do not fret over evil. God is in control and He is in charge. He does not need you to fight His battles. He does not need you to keep the world in check. He does things according to His will.
Do not be so afraid of evil. Rather, be filled with the Holy Spirit and let Jesus direct and guide your life.
We are followers of Christ. Let us do just that and follow Christ. Everytime we look away at sin and evil, we lose our focus. When we are filled with Christ, we are filled with peace, love, and joy.
| 2005/8/11 18:49||Profile|
| Re: In Awe of Thy Word|
Hi my precious brothers and sisters in Jesus, here is the whole book, I think?..nah but enough to make one wanna buy it...yeah!:-P
In Awe of Thy Word by Professor Gail Riplinger
Amen, and Amen.
alt-add: I pressed the quote button instead of the send, my colours are too dark again..whoops.lol :-P
Eric John Sawyer
| 2005/8/11 18:50||Profile|
| 2005/8/11 19:35||Profile|