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Christisking
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Sorry - must have read it wrong. I've heard this type of thing before(motive or heart justifies sin)so maybe that is why I thought that is what he was trying to say. Thanks for clarifying for me. :-?

At least we are on the same page. :-D


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Patrick Ersig

 2005/8/8 14:20Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Quote:
At least we are on the same page.


copy!


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Ron Bailey

 2005/8/8 14:27Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
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 Re:

Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

What if the person was a sinner when they divorced and remarried? And later got saved. Are they still in sin? No, I dont belive so. Did the product of the former marriage (children) disapear? No.

What if a person is a glutton and then gets saved? Does the weight disapear? No.

Gluttony is sin, not obesity. I thank God He doesnt judge our outsides, but of heart whether is be full or sin or washed by the blood. Please dont go on a post about God does or doesnt judge the heart. Actions are judged too. What makes a man fornicate? Does it not start with his heart lusting?

PS I can't decide what to do after reading this thread... fast or eat :-)


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Josh Parsley

 2005/8/8 14:57Profile
lastblast
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Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. What if the person was a sinner when they divorced and remarried? And later got saved. Are they still in sin? No, I dont belive so. Did the product of the former marriage (children) disapear? No.

What if a person is a glutton and then gets saved? Does the weight disapear? No.



Personally, I dont' think that is a good analogy. For one, you are making the assumption that God does not recognize unsaved persons marriages as "joined by Him". I disagree.

I do agree that just by looking at the PRESENT condition of the outside, we do not know what God is accomplishing in their heart. Maybe they are already taking "baby steps" in overcoming their sin-----maybe they have lost some weight or are exercising more. The outward man in this instance may not noticeably reflect what changes ARE occurring.

I do think I understand the reason for this thread: a desire to see ALL sins within the church addressed and dealt with, not just some. In a perfect world............. ;-) Hopefully, if for nothing else, it got all of us thinking more. It did me. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy


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Cindy

 2005/8/8 15:58Profile
mary0418
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Joined: 2005/8/4
Posts: 33


 Re:

Again, we should not vilify anyone over a certain weight limit, but gluttony and taking care of ones temple should be addressed in the church much more than it is, since it is a big problem not only in our country but in our churches. We must also understand that losing weight is a sometimes slow and long process, but we need to encourage and try to make sure that those in are churches are taking those steps and on that path. Insted many times we turn a blind eye out of fear we may offend. How unloving!

Quote:
What if a person is a glutton and then gets saved? Does the weight disapear? No.

I would disagree. If a person stops being a glutton who once was a glutton would lose weight over time.

I say these things and bring up these topics not to tear anyone down, but to build them up that they may be set free. Our Lord Jesus Christ died to set us free. Anyone who is living in the bondage of addiction of food or drug or alcohol or any sin can be set free be the precious blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

If any one is suffering from food addiction, gluttony or obesity please click on the link below. Brothers and sisters in Christ - JESUS SHED HIS BLOOD TO SET YOU FREE!!!

[url=http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/lords_table/]Setting Captives Free - The Lords Table[/url]


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Mary Beth Ersig

 2005/8/8 17:15Profile
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Joined: 2003/11/23
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 Re: Lay the axe to the root...

Hello...!

Again, I believe that the distinction needs to be made that there is a difference between [i]cause[/i] and [i]effect[/i]. Obesity is often the effect (or consequence) of certain sins (such as gluttony, laziness, etc...).

However, there can be many other causes of obesity. I have shared the Lord at several nursing homes and rehabilitation centers, where people are often physically unable to walk or exercise. Often, obesity might not be caused by [i]gluttony[/i] but by [i]dietary choice[/i]. A person who fills his or her body full of artery clogging fats or carbs is almost always destined to gain weight. I have seen people who eat little, but gain weight quickly through eating junk foods (like donuts, potato chips, french fries, pizza, etc...). A person who only excercises moderately will almost assuredly gain weight off of junk food.

The point is that when we confront sin, the "axe should be laid to the root." When Jesus spoke the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5:21-30, he exposed the root of several sins.

Quote:
Verse 21-22
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment."
Verse 27-28 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

The root of obesity may or may not be gluttony. It could be something else. It could be laziness, gluttony, indifference, or possibly even health issues. But remember, gluttony is a sin -- regardless of whether someone is fat or not. You may not [u]see[/u] the results, but the sin could still be there. I am a relatively thin person (actually slightly underweight). Yet I have sometimes been convicted for eating more than I should have. But such excess never really shows on me because of a fast metabolism, along with how much I excercise. Yet gluttony is [u]still[/u] a sin -- even if a person is thin and such gluttony never manifests on the body!

You are correct in that all such issues should be taught in local churches. There is a terrible epidemic in the world today with health problems that arise from obesity. But should we pridefully confront such people? Should we stand on a street corner and say, "[i]I thank you God that I am not like fat sister Suzy[/i]" ? Or should we lovingly weep with them and for them for whatever battle that they face? Regardless, we do not have the rightor authority to question the salvation of a person based solely on a person's weight. And we should never [i]ban[/i] a person from worship for such things. Whether or not God hears their worship is between that person and God. If you have such concern about a person's weight -- speak to them privately and with great love and compassion. And always do so with the same tenderness and grace that you would want someone else to show for a spiritual deficiency in your own life. And always approach the issue with the understanding that not all things are as they appear.

:-)


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Christopher

 2005/8/8 17:53Profile
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Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1838
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

What about the other way!!! Thin people I have got an article but I figure the amount of time we spend sitting down and our diet when we amuse ourselves .
I am thin, C S Lewis talks about the gluttony of delicacy he says the what I want phase!! and gluttony can be in small quantities as well as large quantities!!
Is it the mentally or the actual thing we are trying to analyse!!
God made us exactly how we are should we not thank him whether we are fat or thin and thank him we are not starving!!
I am generally quite thin and face that problem but as god made my body and it is the temple of the holy spirit!!
But I also know that my body is just a shell and what is inside matters more than what is outside!!
I guess if we were just thankful for who we were that would make a difference!!
As a man thinkith in his heart so is he!!
I may not no much and I may find that article!!
Is pride really the issue we face here!! or am I facing it !!
I agree with chris that we should treat people with compassion and love them even more!! :)
god bless
Dom


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Dominic Shiells

 2005/8/8 18:18Profile
HopeinChrist
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Joined: 2005/8/8
Posts: 258


 Re: Obese Christians?

I would like to make a few comments on this thread from the heart of someone who has struggled with many addictions throughout my life including food. I was able to crucify the flesh to many powerful addictions through the power and grace of our Lord including a cocaine addiction that should have killed me. But this one thing.......food stumbled me over and over and over. I felt much guilt and condemnation over it, like a dog returning to his vomit. I did not need anyone to tell me I was sinning. I knew it. Being obese is like wearing a scarlet letter on your dress. And yes there are individual circumstances that lead to obesity that do not stem from gluttony but I would say that usually gluttony is the cause. I wonder how many people we see singing and dancing and worshipping every Sunday have a problem with lust, anger, infidelity, pride, self-righteous spirit, judgmentalism, greed, etc...... yet they appear to be living holy and upright to others.

I think one issue with a food addiction versus other addictions is that you cannot just walk away from food. It is needed for survival. I think if I could have gone on a permanent fast I could have nipped this thing a long time ago. I have had to learn moderation over and above crucifying the flesh. I could not count the times I prayed and vowed to honor my body as the temple of the Holy Spirit only to fall short. I knew for years that this issue was keeping me from a deeper relationship with my Lord and lover of my soul but I never felt like I was going to hell over it, which I get the impression from your post that you feel that if a person struggles with gluttony then they are not really saved and on the road to hell. I hope I have misinterpretted your stance. Maybe I am the only one God has had to grow. I did not instantly become holy when I accepted the power of Christ's blood to cover "all" of my sins. Now my spirit became new instantly but my mind and body are still trying to catch up with what happened in my spirit. And yes I do think it is possible to live a holy life but I think it is a process not an event. At least for most of us.

There were two revelations that finally helped me begin to conquer this stronghold on my life. The first one was discovering the root of it. Someone mentioned that gluttony was rooted in selfishness and I thought the same thing for years but one day the Holy Spirit revealed to me that it was rooted in pride, at least for me. I was sexually molested as a child and really had a difficult time as a young adult and the dating years. I really did not want attention from men and still don't. Remarks that would flatter most women make me very uncomfortable. I think I began to use weight as a barrier to keep the opposite sex at a distance. It was my way of protecting myself. What is self protection? Relying on me to protect me rather than trusting God. This whole thing was rooted in pride. The second revelation and the thing that really turned it around for me was these simple words spoke during a sermon that literally broke my heart. "Lovest thou these more than me?" I understand how Peter must have felt.

I have alot of compassion and patience with saints who are still held captive to many things in their life that they really want to be free from. As you spoke in another post about pastor's not wanting to make people feel guilty, I don't think they have to. The devil does a good enough job of it. I am not saying they should not preach on sin and specific sins but the Holy Spirit is quite capable of penetrating the hearts of his people and a pastor does not need to be manipulative and preach his opinion. Just preach the Word and pray that it is received into the hearts of the people. Christians don't want to be in bondage to sin they want to be free and sometimes it takes years of being bathed in the word before they get the word that truly sets "them" free. And yes I do think there must be remorse over sin before repentance. You said in another post that feeling sorry and guilt were the same thing. I disagree with this. It is quite possible to be and feel guilty and not be sorry or repenant. I equate guilt (the feeling not the state) with condemnation. (There is therefore now no condemnaiton to those who are in Christ Jesus.) I think it is the conviction of the Holy Spirit that leads to true repentance. Under conviction one has hope. Under condemnation one has no hope.
Blessings,
HopeinChrist

 2005/8/9 20:10Profile
moreofHim
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Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: hopeinchrist

HopeinChrist,

thank you for sharing your testimony. I hope it will encourage someone else who may be struggling. :-)

In Him, Chanin


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Chanin

 2005/8/9 21:12Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

savedgrace wrote

Quote:
Of course it is not a sin to be obese.

If it is, would that imply that being fabulously fit and trim equates to being righteous? What if I am fabulously fit and trim because I throw all my energy into exercise and am obsessed with my body image?


... and I am not sure that the conversation really picked up an important point here, namely that someone can be a glutton and have a trim figure. Am I right in thinking that the only person accused of gluttony in the NT was Jesus? The outward signs can often be very misleading.Matt. 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. The word translated glutton really just means someone who is an inappropriate eater. Someone noted for his 'eating'.

I wonder whether our question ought to have been is 'gourmet' eating a sin? Wesley, of couse, would have said 'yes'. Anything that is not primarily fuel was inappropriate for him. He banned sweets to the children in the orphanage because it encouraged sensual pleasure without meeting a basic human need. For the same reason he banned flowers from the garden of the orphanage and insisted they grow only vegetables. He was not in favour of aesthetic pleasure or sensual pleasure because they were not 'necessary'. He would have frowned upon our annual holiday...

Wesley was accused of being extreme by the Bishop of London and replied By 'extraordinary strictnesses and severities,' I presume your Lordship means the abstaining from wine and animal food; which, it is sure, Christianity does not require. But if you do, I fear your Lordship is not thoroughly informed of the matter of fact. I began to do this about twelve years ago, when I had no thought of 'annoying parochial ministers,' or of 'captivating' any 'people' thereby, unless it were the Chicasaw or Choctaw Indians. But I resumed the use of them both, about two years after, for the sake of some who thought I made it a point of conscience; telling them, 'I will eat flesh while the world standeth' rather than 'make my brother to offend.' Dr. Cheyne advised me to leave them off again, assuring me, 'Till you do, you will never be free from fevers.' And since I have taken his advice, I have been free (blessed be God) from all bodily disorders.Wesley, apparently, became a vegetarian. A physician named Dr. George Cheyne was a key influence on John Wesley. He had recommended a lifelong diet "for all those who would cultivate and maintain clear heads and quick senses to the last." According to John Wesley's Works (edited by Ward & Heitzenrater, Vol. 20, Journal & Diaries), Wesley used Cheyne's diet advice throughout his life.

The essence of the "Dr. Cheyne Diet" was that for most of our lives we should limit the amount of "animal food" (meat) and fermented liquors in our diets. At age 50, Dr. Cheyne recommended that one completely eliminate "animal food" suppers and fermented liquors. At age 60 he recommended a total vegetarian diet. Every 10 years thereafter, Dr. Cheyne encouraged Wesley and his other patients to reduce their vegetable intake by 25 percent.
quoted from: http://www.gborocollege.edu/prescorner/diet.html

For almost four years, Wesley's diet consisted mainly of potatoes, partly to improve his health, but also to save money. He said: "What I save from my own meat will feed another that else would have none."

However, to return to the original thought... to 'sin' by unnecessary eating and then to provide 'atonement' by excessive exercising would be a curious theology. Got to go now all this talk about not-eating has made me ready for my lunch.

edit: What a hoot! The automated google adds to the left obviously picked up on the word 'obese' on this thread and provided a URL to a specialist dating agency; www.largefriends.com :-D :-D Apparently I am "...just seconds away from taking that first step towards a happy ending." If that means I am on my way to my sandwich they are right. :-D


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Ron Bailey

 2005/8/10 7:12Profile





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